Firstly I'd like to say the combat looks amazing. This alone actually makes it enjoyable for me.

I feel that the combat cards are a good base mechanic for the combat system and I don't mind the fact that the battle is won in the design and tech of your fleet and the production power of your empire.



However it would be nice to see some expansion on the current model. Firstly I'd like the option to be able to try and run when combat is initiated. Sometimes I find my scout is travelling down a particularly long string connecting two planets and as I near the end I find that there is a fleet of enemy ships waiting for me. Combat is then initiated and the only option I've got is automate the battle or fight manually. It would be nice if I could say ok there is no way i'm gonna win this lets get the hell outa here. Of course there would have to be factors that determine if you are able to escape or not, ship speed, strength of the enemy, speed of the enemy etc.



I'd envision this mechanic working similar to the current manual combat. So maybe you've got like 3 options, automate combat, manual combat, "tactical retreat." The first two are something similar to what currently exists but the third option initiates a similar "mini game," or whatever you want to call it, as the current manual combat. But instead your attempting a withdrawal and you have a entirely different set of "combat cards" that are geared around you evading the enemy and ultimately escaping. And of course this works both ways in that you can have ships attempt to evade you in which case you have a set of cards that you can play to attempt to cut off/prevent the retreat/slow/damage/maim the fleeing party.



Ok so this is quite a big addition to the currant options available to you and would require quite a bit of work and development and would require new animations etc. But ultimately I think it would be a very worthwhile addition.



Be interested to hear if other players agree or would like to see something similar or some other variant or tweak to the idea.



*also I agree with what other ppl are saying about the currant system having a bit more depth (formations, tactics etc.) Currently it is a little static in that you initiate, rush to pick your cards before the first phase, and then just sit back and watch. Its a great base to work with and as I said I love watching the combat. The visuals alone are actually doing it for me. But a few extra tweaks to make it a bit more dynamic would be nice.

Real-time tactical combat is not something the developers wanted to develop for the game, for whatever good reasons they have (there could be several). In many 4x games, there's no tactical combat, either: Alpha Centauri, Civ, Galactic Civilizations, Lost Empires, and the list probably goes on. A good 4x need not have tactical combat for it to work well.



We have the framework for how combat works in this game: Design ships before-hand, choose cards during combat, watch and see what happens. The best thing would be to make suggestions that would make this combat style the best that it can be.

@Flayre



Ok, I understand you, but in the total war serie (metascore +90) you also have the possibility to choose between dice combat or by hand!

Originally Posted by MoonMonster



Errrgh. I like it because it's *not* real time combat. I don't enjoy RTS games. It's cinematic and nice and you have a bit of interplay with your tactic cards, but in the end it's down to the fleet you brought and how it was equipped.



I wouldn't mind some high level options along the lines of the tactic cards, bur ... all that comes to mind is just variations on the cards. Like a Sphere defense or Pincer attack that has bonuses to some stuff, penalties to others, and you choose at what stage of battle it happens. Soo... I guess it's perfect as is, hm. Actually a pauseable planning phase would be nice, but yeah.











Originally Posted by VieuxChat



+1558484684,1

No real-time. Mind over reflexes. But I must say that at the moment the game is missing more cards or options or tactics pre-combat or etc.











Originally Posted by PolytheistGoat



Thought I posted this, but - please, please, please no real-time battles. I understand that some people like those games, and there are a lot out in today's market that are very enjoyable! Please try to understand, however, that there have been few games that have had this concept done - and WELL - in the last decade or so, and it is precisely the lack of unrealistic battle management that make some people, myself included, truly love this game. Plus, re-vamping the combat system at this point would take a huge amount of time and energy; things that could both be spent adding new content, fine-tuning existing content, and ironing out the remaining issues with the game. There can be features added - choosing fleets to attack, more cards and/or pre-battle tactics, but there is no need to encumber the game with pointless clicking-based combat optimization, especially when there are so many other games out there that add that feature.



-------------------- (Sorry, don't know how to proprerly quote)



I must say, these ideas are awesome. The concept is very good, They just need to be fleshed out a bit more ! Like people said earlier, targeting ships, formations, etc.

May be I overcharge, we all poke holes in this forum and no dev is visible, from other great projects I have made other experiences.

50 messages are not enough, --- mmmhhh, here is no cooperation except we newbies since Steam START. Bummer!

I'm just realizing that battles are more realistic later in the party, is just at the begining, with small fleets, but later, it's more balanced, they should try to balance early battles.

I really like the tactics system, needs to be fleshed out quite a bit though.

@reynanuy



Do you know that this is a ALPHA?

Do you know that this forum, special this place, is a place to hear the gamer wishes!

I think these wishes are importend and deciding between TOP or FLOP.



".....and they won't get this." --------> With 'they' you mean the developer, but that's not a game for dev's !!!

To me combat is just perfect as designed, it can be improved adding stuff; such as more strategies, additional camera movement, strike craft, better audio effects, etc. But let's not turn ES into something it's not, I say this because it seems a lot of people were expecting/wanting a sort of SOASE/HW2 gameplay and they won't get this. I love ES not in spite of this but because of this.

JMLOng wrote:
Firstly I'd like to say the combat looks amazing. This alone actually makes it enjoyable for me.

I feel that the combat cards are a good base mechanic for the combat system and I don't mind the fact that the battle is won in the design and tech of your fleet and the production power of your empire.



However it would be nice to see some expansion on the current model. Firstly I'd like the option to be able to try and run when combat is initiated. Sometimes I find my scout is travelling down a particularly long string connecting two planets and as I near the end I find that there is a fleet of enemy ships waiting for me. Combat is then initiated and the only option I've got is automate the battle or fight manually. It would be nice if I could say ok there is no way i'm gonna win this lets get the hell outa here. Of course there would have to be factors that determine if you are able to escape or not, ship speed, strength of the enemy, speed of the enemy etc.



I'd envision this mechanic working similar to the current manual combat. So maybe you've got like 3 options, automate combat, manual combat, "tactical retreat." The first two are something similar to what currently exists but the third option initiates a similar "mini game," or whatever you want to call it, as the current manual combat. But instead your attempting a withdrawal and you have a entirely different set of "combat cards" that are geared around you evading the enemy and ultimately escaping. And of course this works both ways in that you can have ships attempt to evade you in which case you have a set of cards that you can play to attempt to cut off/prevent the retreat/slow/damage/maim the fleeing party.



Ok so this is quite a big addition to the currant options available to you and would require quite a bit of work and development and would require new animations etc. But ultimately I think it would be a very worthwhile addition.



Be interested to hear if other players agree or would like to see something similar or some other variant or tweak to the idea.



*also I agree with what other ppl are saying about the currant system having a bit more depth (formations, tactics etc.) Currently it is a little static in that you initiate, rush to pick your cards before the first phase, and then just sit back and watch. Its a great base to work with and as I said I love watching the combat. The visuals alone are actually doing it for me. But a few extra tweaks to make it a bit more dynamic would be nice.

You have to think that when you travel, you're in a kind of "wormhole" and once you're in it, you can't go back as you wish, it's not because it works with turns that your ship stops in the middle of the travel in the next turn, it only goes from one point to another.

First of all I'll say I love the game. But the combat is too repetitive at the end. Anyway I love the concept. Absolutely. Is something new and for a veteran in 4xTBS and RTS games as me is very interesting



Some of my suggestions:

- More cards, defined by ship equipment, research, size of ships involved, role, admirals, formations, etc. So the control of the battle wont be only rock-scissor-paper aproach. I'd like more depth (with more cards).

- Control on the time, I mean Pause (in any moment) and 2x,4x... time sliders.

- Maybe more phases (or more specialized phases, f.i. fighter phase, orbital defense phase if you're in a colony, etc), that only would activate in determined circumstances.

- More information about the results of each phase, (damage inflicted, received, ships damaged, etc), so you can plan your new movements

- Free camera to move around the combat scene in any moment. This would give the combat life.

- Assign Heroes to one ship in the fleet, not to the fleet as a whole.

- Initial tactics for the fleet (maybe defined in the strategic galaxy view- f.i: "Primary Action: target capital vessels first, target escorts first, Secondary Action: Retreat if Commander vessel is destroyed", etc)

- Some random elements to make the battles more interesting and introduce a risk factor even with superiority (could be cards too)

- Possibiliy of retreating from battles in any phase (with losses)

- More inmersion (music, sounds, sirens, flashes)

can someone describe the combat system for me? It sounds like weapon range means nothing and that you have almost zero control in your fight. I am not a fan of rts but was hoping it was atleast turn based

Randeng wrote:
I agree, but the battle is too long, you have the feeling to see again and again and again the same battle... And the most problem is that the shi fu mi system isn't a good idea, you should pick a card and that it, no "card battle" that destroy one card... I don't like "lucky games", the only thing that you should pick it's a card with the good effect at the good moment, not thinking "well, what will the ennemy do next???". If you took damages in the previous turn, then pick the healing card, if you have more kineticks weapons, so use a card boosting weapons power in the short range phase, just that, not shi fu mi that destroy the battle adding an huge part of luck.



And battles are too long, maybe they should add some option to speed up the time and doing a break when you pick a card.



Plus those things, like it's already said, adding different kinds of "strategies" (like fleet formation or options like transfert energy from shields to weapons, etc...). I

Random elements are usually added to make something static more dynamic (like crit % in an rpg). The dynamics in a strategy game should come from the actions of the player and not random numbers or luck. I personally think Gratious Space Battles did the cinematic battles right as you could repeat the same set up and it would usually give the same resoult. If you failed, then it was either because of your ship composition or the orders you had given them. I also think that the cards countering each other makes it a bit too much of a guessing game and I would also like to see that being removed.

Randeng wrote:


And battles are too long, maybe they should add some option to speed up the time and doing a break when you pick a card.

I haven't played the game yet (I will as soon as my bank lets me complete the transaction), but slow battles and annoying animations are what I fear most in turn based games. The Final Fantasy style of battle is what I use as a warning example. The first few times you see an animation, it can be fun, but after a few hundred times it gets really annoying. I want to spend my time making decisions, not waiting. If you start looking for distractions while playing the game, you know something is very wrong, and there are many games where this happens to me, for example in pretty much every game with unskippable cut scenes. If ES has this effect on me, I expect to auto-resolve all except perhaps the most important of battles, but I would prefer some kind of "instant phases" where you chose your card and got the results immediately. Again, this said from previous experience, not actually having played the game yet.

It would be nice if you could cycle through camera angles as well as just have the default auto-camera, also an option to increase combat speed by 2x or maybe 3x would be nice, especially when multiplayer is enabled.

I agree, but the battle is too long, you have the feeling to see again and again and again the same battle... And the most problem is that the shi fu mi system isn't a good idea, you should pick a card and that it, no "card battle" that destroy one card... I don't like "lucky games", the only thing that you should pick it's a card with the good effect at the good moment, not thinking "well, what will the ennemy do next???". If you took damages in the previous turn, then pick the healing card, if you have more kineticks weapons, so use a card boosting weapons power in the short range phase, just that, not shi fu mi that destroy the battle adding an huge part of luck.



And battles are too long, maybe they should add some option to speed up the time and doing a break when you pick a card.



Plus those things, like it's already said, adding different kinds of "strategies" (like fleet formation or options like transfert energy from shields to weapons, etc...). I

I'm liking the combat system, it's something that i'm quite excited about. Huge potential here.



A few points: (some already mentioned)



Music-The music in my opinion needs to be more warlike with heavier bass/drums to get you in the mood that a conflict is going on. The current music is good but i do think it's missing something.



Graphics- Pretty good for a game in Alpha and a 4x, Camera angles are a little tight in areas and an option to change some of them would be a nice addition.



Playing Cards- Agreed that more should be added but i love the concept



Heroes- I think they should have more of a play in the battle, what if there's a chance that one of them goes nuts as they can't handle the pressure? Or has some kind of "idea/revelation" to help sway the battle of some sort.



Formations- Yup, agreed that this could be interesting, even if you started off creating a few basic formations like LINE, WEDGE and then proximity, CLOSE, LONG would improve the dynamic of it (lets say a line formation where all ships are spaced out take less damage for example but maybe doesn't receive bonuses from other ships)



Tactics- As already mentioned the ability to prioritise which ship should be focussed on or protected would add another dynamic (perhaps only fleets that have a hero could have extended options like this, it would make heros more important)



Random- I do think some random elements should also be added like ship malfunctions, elements or even just taken X amount of damage and this ship has taken a hit on it's engines, therefore it cannot evade incoming attacks as much. (add modifier here)



On each "Phase" you could explore the possibility of changing the Formations & Tactics (perhaps some can't be changed as it takes too long)





Sounds like a lot, but i honestly think if the above was explored/experimented you could have a truely unique/fun/challenging battle mechanic.

MoonMonster wrote:
Errrgh. I like it because it's *not* real time combat. I don't enjoy RTS games. It's cinematic and nice and you have a bit of interplay with your tactic cards, but in the end it's down to the fleet you brought and how it was equipped.



I wouldn't mind some high level options along the lines of the tactic cards, bur ... all that comes to mind is just variations on the cards. Like a Sphere defense or Pincer attack that has bonuses to some stuff, penalties to others, and you choose at what stage of battle it happens. Soo... I guess it's perfect as is, hm. Actually a pauseable planning phase would be nice, but yeah.

VieuxChat wrote:
+1558484684,1

No real-time. Mind over reflexes. But I must say that at the moment the game is missing more cards or options or tactics pre-combat or etc.

PolytheistGoat wrote:
Thought I posted this, but - please, please, please no real-time battles. I understand that some people like those games, and there are a lot out in today's market that are very enjoyable! Please try to understand, however, that there have been few games that have had this concept done - and WELL - in the last decade or so, and it is precisely the lack of unrealistic battle management that make some people, myself included, truly love this game. Plus, re-vamping the combat system at this point would take a huge amount of time and energy; things that could both be spent adding new content, fine-tuning existing content, and ironing out the remaining issues with the game. There can be features added - choosing fleets to attack, more cards and/or pre-battle tactics, but there is no need to encumber the game with pointless clicking-based combat optimization, especially when there are so many other games out there that add that feature.











Agree to both of these.

I agree on on these posts no real time combat but more options with cards or tactic's.

Thought I posted this, but - please, please, please no real-time battles. I understand that some people like those games, and there are a lot out in today's market that are very enjoyable! Please try to understand, however, that there have been few games that have had this concept done - and WELL - in the last decade or so, and it is precisely the lack of unrealistic battle management that make some people, myself included, truly love this game. Plus, re-vamping the combat system at this point would take a huge amount of time and energy; things that could both be spent adding new content, fine-tuning existing content, and ironing out the remaining issues with the game. There can be features added - choosing fleets to attack, more cards and/or pre-battle tactics, but there is no need to encumber the game with pointless clicking-based combat optimization, especially when there are so many other games out there that add that feature.

MoonMonster wrote:
Errrgh. I like it because it's *not* real time combat. I don't enjoy RTS games. It's cinematic and nice and you have a bit of interplay with your tactic cards, but in the end it's down to the fleet you brought and how it was equipped.



I wouldn't mind some high level options along the lines of the tactic cards, bur ... all that comes to mind is just variations on the cards. Like a Sphere defense or Pincer attack that has bonuses to some stuff, penalties to others, and you choose at what stage of battle it happens. Soo... I guess it's perfect as is, hm. Actually a pauseable planning phase would be nice, but yeah.

VieuxChat wrote:
+1558484684,1

No real-time. Mind over reflexes. But I must say that at the moment the game is missing more cards or options or tactics pre-combat or etc.

Agree to both of these.

I would like there to be different "stages" to each battle, with certain types of phases being specifically located within those stages. For example:

STAGE I - PROLOGUE

Prelude Phase (Random effect)

Terrain Phase (Planetary rings, blackholes, asteroid belts, battlefields.)

Formation Phase (How you want to arrange your ships.)

Scouting Phase (Your scouts figure out enemy numbers, generalizes strength/weaknesses, opens up opportunities.)



STAGE II - BATTLE

Event Phase (random effect)

Hero Phase (Only available with heroes present)

Station Phase (For space stations)

Orbital Phase (Planetary defense)

Fighter Phase

Long Phase

Medium Phase

Short Phase

Besiege Phase (Planetary bombardment & invasion oriented)



STAGE III - EPILOGUE

Aftermath Phase (Random effect)

Victory Phase (For the winner)

Punishment Phase (For the loser)

Retreat Phase (Adds details to what happens to retreating forces, only applied to a player that plays this card.)