SpaceTroll wrote:
As it was already mentionned the background was chosen by vote, which was not my favorite... I even tried to influence the vote towards the fanatics *shame on me*... but nope they all wanted simple pirates..



Regarding the gameplay implementation of them today, we'll revisit them as soon as we have a minute, we are not very happy with it (very random, sometimes too hard, sometimes hard to find)



As for the multiple factions of pirates that would cool, definitely something to track for post release.

I'm all for it if you also include the abducting aliens?

Stargem wrote:
Maybe there could be minor factions that represent different facets of society. For example, Terrorists are generated by worlds with unhappy populances, Pirates stem from economically poor worlds, and are attracted towards rich trade routs, while Zealots are not fond of research-happy worlds and try to keep exploration forces from defiling untapped worlds and artifacts.

Seriously agree.

I like your idea, but i would still like to see pirates have an active role in the galaxy rather than just a -%dust effect.



How about the pirates in Sins of a solar empire? They have a heavily fortified base, and they only leave it to hunt bounties and trade ships.

And then if trading looked more like in Total War, with trade vessels travelling through the galaxy all on their own.

Pirates could focus on hitting unguarded points in the trade lanes from their bases around the universe and then fight or flee when the big empire fleets show up.



Edit: After writing this i noticed there were three more pages in the thread, sorry if i missed anything or am repeating stuff.

OP is spot on. A very thoughtful post worthy of dev attention.

Pirates - especially in early game - should be way weaker. Otherwise one has to explain why they are so powerful compared to the industrial output of entire star systems.



This can then be offset by a penalty you get for your production in systems were pirates are active unchecked and in health penalties in unoccupied systems when non-combat ships pass through.



And then I agree with the threadstarter that the devs should check their suicidal tendencies, but this is another problem which involves the missing option of retreat from battles.

I'm not sure if it's something I'm doing, but playing on medium, as soon as I build my first couple of defenders, I generally have no problem with pirates

i really like the ideas posted here, but i must agree to the one who said, if we revote things we postpone the whole progress of developement.



the suggestetions of more depth for the game is probably somthing that will scare a lot of people away, especially those who have not at much experience with this kind of game.

what i really would like to see is the option for every player to add those complex parts to the current session by actively choosing them from some kind of "advanced gameplay options" menu.

this would surely mean that the dev team had to do a lot of extra work, but it is mostly the little things that add to the whole experience of a game, sadly it is kind of like the pareto principle which means that to make a game feel more complete u have to do a buddload of extra work.

endoria wrote:
i really like the ideas posted here, but i must agree to the one who said, if we revote things we postpone the whole progress of developement.



the suggestetions of more depth for the game is probably somthing that will scare a lot of people away, especially those who have not at much experience with this kind of game.

what i really would like to see is the option for every player to add those complex parts to the current session by actively choosing them from some kind of "advanced gameplay options" menu.

this would surely mean that the dev team had to do a lot of extra work, but it is mostly the little things that add to the whole experience of a game, sadly it is kind of like the pareto principle which means that to make a game feel more complete u have to do a buddload of extra work.

they set up this games2gether system with the express purpose of giving us unruly lot a say in how things end up being



and even if this cannot be made into this game



im thinking archived for dlc and expansions



because yanno what, thinking about it , op is exactly right about pirates



this is a whole galaxy of people



i want pirates, terrorists, fanatics, i want shady corporate alliances that try and influence everything,



all of course optional in options



but it would make things so much more varied than it is right now,

I love the pirates as they are... I was having a rather boring time with a map, until I entered space practically infested with pirates, now I'm constantly fighting them off. However, I agree we should have a bigger range of space-terrorists that do different things. Spice things up a bit.

Pirates in these games annoy me, so I turn them off!

Yeah I've turned them off for similar reasons. I liked the pirates from Sins of a Solar Empire? where they started with a system and would raid whoever they got bribed to attack. Still a ways from "earth" pirates of the day(s), but it made more sense to me than these randomly spawning "barbarians" (Civ game reference) that would perform suicide attacks on anyone for no apparant reason. (Though admittedly I like the fact that they take over systems - I had a game where pirates kept an enemy player completely at bay by taking their systems diving our borders completely)

I agree with the first topic. Pirates could have more background.

Anyway, during my games, pirates proves to be really annoying. As I love spreading till start of the game, I'm obliged to face them whereas I encounter the others nations. During my last game, pirates in major fleets (double fleets of 9x pirate ships) were able to steal 3 star system at the same time. I was forced to split my force between pirate front and war against other nation. It was a really pleasant/challenging party.

Someone touched on it briefly a few pages earlier, but alongside with Pirate tweaking, I wouldn't mind a "Dread Lord" event like in GalCiv2. Randomly in your game (if you were unlucky) the "Dread Lords" would invade the galaxy. To survive, every civilization had to turn towards this new combined enemy or else face destruction. It was fun, game-changing, and really made it fun for the player to adapt.



I am a big proponent of an idea like this. "Mega Events". Imagine if some extragalactic race suddenly invaded with a high tech, hard hitting fleet and started devouring planets in the system. You could choose to try to end your wars and work with the other races to end your otherwise ultimate demise, or you might try "thriving" off of the chaos - exploiting and taking advantage of the downfall of other civilizations at the hands of this foreign menace.



Oh man, that event was so fun when it happened. It makes me want to go play GalCiv2 again...but after tasting this game, I don't know if it would suffice!



Any dev who reads....the things I will do for such a mega-event to be incorporated...

As it was already mentionned the background was chosen by vote, which was not my favorite... I even tried to influence the vote towards the fanatics *shame on me*... but nope they all wanted simple pirates..



Regarding the gameplay implementation of them today, we'll revisit them as soon as we have a minute, we are not very happy with it (very random, sometimes too hard, sometimes hard to find)



As for the multiple factions of pirates that would cool, definitely something to track for post release.

Stargem wrote:
Maybe there could be minor factions that represent different facets of society. For example, Terrorists are generated by worlds with unhappy populances, Pirates stem from economically poor worlds, and are attracted towards rich trade routs, while Zealots are not fond of research-happy worlds and try to keep exploration forces from defiling untapped worlds and artifacts.

That's a good point imho

@Spacetroll:



One way to implement them could be to make them an actual faction with a home planet (an asteroid perhaps for fluff / flavour?). They drain systems of money/production while blockading them (much like the hero passive abilities). They'd have to actually build raiding fleets, instead of having them spawn in the fog of war.



For more "!!FUN!!" you could make it possible for them to colonize asteroid fields while staying hidden, so you'd never know exactly where they come from. Until you try and colonize their planets/systems or research enough influence/spy techs? (a thought more than an actual thought out suggestion)

Mesthione wrote:


I am a big proponent of an idea like this. "Mega Events".

Count me in as well. I really would like to see mega events (like invasions (Borg, Reaper, Species 8472, Yuuzhan Vong, call-them-what-you-want-race), supernovae, solar storms and stuff like that. Everything that makes it more epic and space opera like. ;-)

Great point OP well thought out and rather than just criticse you proved some alternatives and some ideas

That actually makes a lot of sense now that you mention it.



Also, could we have some sort of faction specific civil war break out if unhappiness grows too low in some systems?

Hmm... I must admit, unhappiness doesn't really feel so threatening without the threat of rebellion... but to counter this, unhappiness should be perhaps slightly harder to achieve, as in such a case, you might get a rebellion just for colonising a gas giant due to the unhappiness penalty of the planet type.

Kingsclaw wrote:
I'm going to be honest about something, I hate pirates in Space 4X games because NOBODY has done them justice.



In almost all the space strategy games I've played pirates are setup as a suicidal militia group, often with powerful vessels causing general havoc with my fledgling empire that only effects my economy by forcing me to rebuild my military vessels.



You know who does that? Terrorists or merc groups. Pirates have one soul purpose - to steal valuables in the fastest and most painless way without anybody catching them.



The other problem with pirates is eventually they are easily wiped out mid-game with a click, something which to this day no government on are planet has managed to do. I'd like to imagine pirates would flourish in space what with all the traffic with trade vessels and shipping lanes as empires span the galaxies.



I honestly believe that pirates in a real space 4X game should be something dealt with in the background that directly effect your economy, like countering espionage. The larger your empire, the more serious Pirates would effect your income. You could implement research or building options to counter this. I suppose patrol vessels could be possible, but pirates would naturally be scared of by them - not confronting them in medium size attack cruisers.

When you say nobody has done them justice, that's almost exactly how they were implemented in MOO3. Pirates had a negative effect on both income and stability (the equivalent of happiness in ES). The magnitude of the effect depended on the system population, and could be countered by stationing ships there. You never actually saw any pirate ships, just their effects on the system. The only part really missing was that the effectiveness of the counter depended solely on total size class, so a single dreadnought would be as effective as many smaller ships which, as you say, isn't really realistic.

SpaceTroll wrote:
As it was already mentionned the background was chosen by vote, which was not my favorite... I even tried to influence the vote towards the fanatics *shame on me*... but nope they all wanted simple pirates.

I think the problem isn't so much that pirates were chosen, but that as implemented they're not really pirates at all. Pirates generally have fairly small resources, and survive by engaging in hit-and-run attacks on vulnerable merchants and the like. Whereas in ES, and many other 4X games, they apparently have the resources of entire star systems behind them and can go head-to-head with the battlefleets of major galactic empires. So it's not that there's anything wrong with pirates, they could just do with being a little more piratey.

SpaceTroll wrote:
As for the multiple factions of pirates that would cool, definitely something to track for post release.

Europa Universalis 3 does something like this in a very nice way. There are various different types of rebels that appear based on different factors and with different goals. So if you conquer a small country you might get rebels that will try to reform that country if they manage to take over the relevant provinces, but if your claim to the throne is weak you might get rebels that try to take over as much of the country as possible and replace the existing ruler with a new one. Obviously a lot of the details aren't applicable here since it's a different kind of game, and being Paradox it goes into far more fiddly details than most people want to deal with. But I think it's worth a look at for some ideas of how different outlaw factions can be implemented in a game.



They also have quite a good way of dealing with actual pirates. Essentially there are two separate effects. If you don't have a large enough fleet and don't patrol your coastal waters enough (fleet size and patrolling actually give two separate modifiers), distant colonies will produce far less income from tariffs as merchants are assumed to be less able to trade. If you don't patrol coasts regularly, small pirate fleets can spawn which blockade ports, reducing income and increasing revolt chance. I think this could work pretty well in ES as well. Instead of having pirates in powerful fleets that can invade and conquer planets, have them appear as small fleets that are relatively easily beaten in a straight fight, but will keep appearing if you just have a couple of big fleets and don't leave ships behind to patrol your systems. Instead of invasions, they could simply blockade a system and maybe siphon off part of its dust income. And instead of appearing in uncontrolled systems, they would only appear in controlled but undefended ones.

I agree with you good sir. Pirates' objectives are not based around killing colonies or anything nonsense like that. They attack shipping lines and get all the loot they can. Pirates survive off of the loot they pillage from trading vessels, and generally take on vessels that are much weaker than them, securing an easy win. Pirates have no reason to take on any sort of opposition. Think about it, would a major drug smuggler blow up a police station? Derp, no. They would operate under their nose (yah know, like tehy do).



Good post, you make a lot of sense

As long as we are talking Pirates here, the level of new involvement being discussed seems to be in the direction of a mini-faction.

If anyone here is familiar with "Sins of a Solar Empire," they have both mini factions as well as Pirates (the utility and purpose of both have waxed and waned with nearly every update/expansion through).



The devs have already stated that they don't want to put in any kind of minor empires for now. To me, development concerning pirates should follow the following:



1: Work out the kinks with the main races

1b: Affect Pirates as needed and modify them as a potential "testing ground" for the viability of minor factions.

2. Work out the kinks with the main races



I like the idea of Pirates hitting supply lines and generally creating havoc for economy and industry. But how would one do that? Could they have a special support modification for such things in their ships? If they were "stationed" between planets, could they a percentage of income from trade? These are all very rough ideas since I'm only about an hour into the game.

QcNoodle wrote:
you could mod the game... not that hard seriously...

There's a different sub forum for that. If he wanted to mod the game, he would've posted this there.



I couldn't imagine Amplitude saying: "Hey guys its our game and all but yeah all those features you've suggested or want we'll just go ahead and allow modding tools so you can fix the game for us so we don't have to, ha trollololololol."

I liked how the pirates were implemented in MOO3, it forced me to keep patrol fleets around all systems, and I agree that several smaller vessels should be better at this than one big.

If you want to keep pirate fleets, they should appear over poorly defended systems and blockade + siphon money from it, even pillage if left unchecked for some time and even occupy it if left unchecked for a long time, but they would retreat/disappear when a larger fleet was attacking them. Of course if a smaller fleet attacked them, they would try to destroy it. They should have lots of small ships, with big ships being a rarity. Maybe both can be implemented (negative effect + random fleets)?



The way they are implemented now, maybe they could be a powerful pirate faction, like Yaki in X-universe, probably filled with renegades from all races with a powerful leader.

Perhaps they should be renamed to Barbarians.



Or Independent Militants.



Or Space-faring Nomads.



That way you won't have to re-design anything. Except for adding a "Ransom" button when the engagement window comes up.

With the AI being unbalanced as it is, giving pirates more power (and the fact they just pop up, in the middle of our borders) is generally a bad idea. If i'm fighting a war on 3 borders i don't want some damn pirates raping me in the back. Sure pirates should be rethought, but more power to them (to the point of them being a faction?) makes no sense.

Exactly how much power you want to give them has nothing (really) to do with them being a faction. Think of the minor races in gal civ 2, they are technically a faction, but week.



However I like strong pirates, reminds me to build up my forces early. otherwise i would wait till i encounter a hostile enemy, which can be too late.

Radon wrote:
With the AI being unbalanced as it is, giving pirates more power (and the fact they just pop up, in the middle of our borders) is generally a bad idea. If i'm fighting a war on 3 borders i don't want some damn pirates raping me in the back. Sure pirates should be rethought, but more power to them (to the point of them being a faction?) makes no sense.

Truhan wrote:
Oh, you mean like when the stars are right and R'lyeh rises from the oceans and great Cthulhu awakens from his slumber for a time? Or perhaps the monotonous flutes stop playing for some reason and the nuclear chaos of the universe that is Azathoth stops being the Blind Idiot God and starts being unbridled destruction.

I sense great sarcasm with this one.

You, sir, are a true pirate. Though I must ponder how a zealot could emerge amongst the Horatio when they're a race of clones (accidental cloning mutation perhaps? I LOVE when games decide to do fluff, hint hint).

did you know you could disable them when you create a game?...

QcNoodle wrote:
did you know you could disable them when you create a game?...

Lol that's not my point....I want more depth not less.

You, sir. Just made a lot of sense. From now on, I shall call them: Terrorists.

Kingsclaw wrote:
Lol that's not my point....I want more depth not less.

you could mod the game... not that hard seriously...

I agree with OP completely.



Losing a system or two and having a massive attack on infrastructure would really be interesting.

Oooo I really like the ideas your throwing around. I never gave it much thought, but after pondering on it you have some nice points. A change such as that would bring the game to life a little more and make things more dynamic. I am personally a big fan of all sorts of events in strategy games such as this. It brings me more into the game. If we have the ability to mod in events ect... I might consider doing this. Regardless I hope the Devs take notice, and that they have the ability, intention, and of course time to bring more things like this into the game.

I would like a few game-wrecking random encounters (like the "Grand Menaces" from SOTS). Terrorists would be one of them. Basically something damaging enough to really upset the "galactic order" and maybe force players to ally against a common enemy. They need to be something drastic, capable of crippling a powerful player or wiping out a smaller one.

Kingsclaw -> Count with me in your fight! I think the same and it is very good to see other question the same. This suicidal pirates are nonsense. This came from a long time ago and nobody thinks about it, but i hope that someone, someday listen what you said. The games will be much more realistic and interesting!

Actually one of the first options in the games2gether approach was a vote on the background story for the pirates. Sadly that vote seems not to have been archived, but here's the old thread dealing with the argument, if our endless space pirates should be people abducting 1) aliens, 2) fanatics or 3) criminals (that option won): /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/10982-discussion-pirates-and-why-the-third-options-dosent-work

idea: the pirate ships are actually self-replicating/upgrading warships originally produced by the Endless. With the Endless gone, they have reactivated upon the appearance of new spacefaring species and indiscriminately attack all non-Endless civilizations.

kazi wrote:
I would like a few game-wrecking random encounters (like the "Grand Menaces" from SOTS). Terrorists would be one of them. Basically something damaging enough to really upset the "galactic order" and maybe force players to ally against a common enemy. They need to be something drastic, capable of crippling a powerful player or wiping out a smaller one.

Oh, you mean like when the stars are right and R'lyeh rises from the oceans and great Cthulhu awakens from his slumber for a time? Or perhaps the monotonous flutes stop playing for some reason and the nuclear chaos of the universe that is Azathoth stops being the Blind Idiot God and starts being unbridled destruction.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Actually one of the first options in the games2gether approach was a vote on the background story for the pirates. Sadly that vote seems not to have been archived, but here's the old thread dealing with the argument, if our endless space pirates should be people abducting 1) aliens, 2) fanatics or 3) criminals (that option won): /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/10982-discussion-pirates-and-why-the-third-options-dosent-work

That's too bad. I like the idea of fanatics a lot more. But I suppose if we go back and revote on things, the game will never get made :P

I'm going to be honest about something, I hate pirates in Space 4X games because NOBODY has done them justice.



In almost all the space strategy games I've played pirates are setup as a suicidal militia group, often with powerful vessels causing general havoc with my fledgling empire that only effects my economy by forcing me to rebuild my military vessels.



You know who does that? Terrorists or merc groups. Pirates have one soul purpose - to steal valuables in the fastest and most painless way without anybody catching them.



The other problem with pirates is eventually they are easily wiped out mid-game with a click, something which to this day no government on are planet has managed to do. I'd like to imagine pirates would flourish in space what with all the traffic with trade vessels and shipping lanes as empires span the galaxies.



I honestly believe that pirates in a real space 4X game should be something dealt with in the background that directly effect your economy, like countering espionage. The larger your empire, the more serious Pirates would effect your income. You could implement research or building options to counter this. I suppose patrol vessels could be possible, but pirates would naturally be scared of by them - not confronting them in medium size attack cruisers.



As for those nasty ships that could seriously harass your empire? Fanatics.



Fanatical zealots that have some grand or twisted design for the galaxy. Zealots usually have one purpose, they can be fanatically suicidal and they CAN BE anybody. More then anything they can be a true memorable terror on the galaxy.



The possibilities for what Zealots are capable of are endless. True wild cards. They could suddenly appear in a massive fleet, corrupt your societies, unleash bio attacks on your planets, even take over your ships by turning your crew. You could even add a nice dlc package where some crazed charismatic zealot prophet suddenly appears ready to burn the galaxy in his purifying light of destruction.



Could you imagine your on turn 102 and suddenly everything in the galaxy goes nuts? Comm channels are taken over by his or her memorable voice as ships go reported missing, solar systems go off the grid or turn against you followed by serious wave attacks that effect all players. True acts of terror.



Do I expect to see this happen? Probably not this late in development, but I can dream...



I'm just so tired of pirates attacking my military fleets in space games in suicidal rushes until I wipe them out; unless they plan stealing my ships....they just aren't doing it properly.



The only solution otherwise I could see is to have the pirates be some fallen race, who lost their home world but still retain power via their ships flying through space without a home. True buccaneers of the stars (vs what your average pirate would be flying) attacking out of greed and for resources (ships/parts). Not simply to destroy your ships and fly away. A pirate is a pirate after all and nothing makes a pirate smile like gol-er dust.



Something to think about Amplitude...

Monarch wrote:
I sense great sarcasm with this one.

No sarcasm, just trying to be funneh. I like the idea of great disruptions of the order too, but I was just offering a Lovecraftian spin on such possible "events."

Nosferatiel wrote:
Actually one of the first options in the games2gether approach was a vote on the background story for the pirates. Sadly that vote seems not to have been archived, but here's the old thread dealing with the argument, if our endless space pirates should be people abducting 1) aliens, 2) fanatics or 3) criminals (that option won): /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/10982-discussion-pirates-and-why-the-third-options-dosent-work

This actually highlights one minor problem with public voting, people tend to vote with what their comfortable or familiar with. That doesn't mean its the best option or well thought out. Pirates are cool, they have been romanticized since the golden age 1600 with serious flair, I love pirates myself. I grew up back in the early 90's playing the original Pirates!



On the other hand fanatics are unpredictably and down right scary. When it comes to "bad" things people vote for what they feel comfortable with, or feels less threatening. Pirates= swashbuckling men after gold - even smugglers like Han. Fanatics have the suicidal tendency to charge into danger for what they believe in, which can be down right insane. Not to mention you never know what your drinking when they hand you a cup of cool aid.



Then it comes to how they are implemented ingame, if pirates were implemented properly I'd be all for them - but thats not the case here again. Pirates have become a broken cycle for space 4X. From a developers point of view fanatics could have serious game changing events that could breakup 1,2,3,4 cycle that most 4X games follow with a light flavor, that would be easier to implement vs introducing a whole new pirate economic model.

Personally I like the inclusion of "Fanatics" or even "Terrorists" along with Pirates. Fanatics could become a result of happiness levels that are too high, showing up in those systems and causing all kinds of havoc until they're put down. Same thing with Terrorists, except if happiness falls to 0% or lower. Pirates should be more like a minor faction, instead of just appearing randomly in unoccupied systems, they should have bases of operations and be able to upgrade their military capacities and also be able to be irradicated should you locate and then siege their base-worlds.

Maybe one of the yet to be released factions could be related to the pirates somehow? That would explain where they come from, and give that faction some interesting mechanics, like hiring privateers and what not, or providing havens for pirates in exchange for some pay off...

In one of my first plays, I was in easy mode, if memory serves. I ran into a weird hissho empire.... the hissho controlled 5 planets and pirates controlled 4 other systems which - to my eye- were former hissho systems...

So if you neglect the pirates... they multiply like locusts.

Well. If you want pirates to be really strong and able to invade worlds then just make them a faction.



Makes no sense that some pirate scum have giant space ships. Just consider the time an resource it takes an entire civilization to build a warship. So where do the constantly spawning pirate ships come from. Annoying.



Would be cool if there were a pirate base hidden somewhere.

I kinda agree with your idea about pirates being a "behind the scene" nuisance (or allies ? Like Sins, you can bribe them to go and annoy your opponent).

What I don't like is your idea of everything going nuts at turn 102 (and I understand it's an example). GalCiv 2 has something like this, where planets / ships of everyone form a brand new faction (Jagged Alliance IIRC). It's annoying, to say the least. I understand it can be refreshing if it's your 50th game, but most of the time it just srews your experience up.

It's important to remember that pirates aren't a one big allied happy family. Pirates are not united in anyway, they're in groups or even solo just raiding trade ships and such. They're supposed to attack your trade routs to annoy rather than your empire or your fleets. If anything they should have a hit and run tactic and being on the run if more ships then they can handle come.

yes, +1 for more abstracted piracy wich only steals money, and using police cutters to fight that.



And rename the suicidal attackers in some sort of terrorist would be cool too

Inquisitioner wrote:
It's important to remember that pirates aren't a one big allied happy family. Pirates are not united in anyway, they're in groups or even solo just raiding trade ships and such.

THATS NOT TRUE!!!!1111eleven



Ulli

Member of Pirate Party Germany





Okok, back to topic. Yeah, pirates as a united faction in a game doesn't make any sense. And, to be honest: In most cases pirates do not have their own "type" of ships... they fly whatever they could get, imo.

Monarch wrote:
That's too bad. I like the idea of fanatics a lot more. But I suppose if we go back and revote on things, the game will never get made :P

Yes, indeed. I voted for aliens and it was a close thing, if I remember correctly.

Sharidann wrote:
In one of my first plays, I was in easy mode, if memory serves. I ran into a weird hissho empire.... the hissho controlled 5 planets and pirates controlled 4 other systems which - to my eye- were former hissho systems...

So if you neglect the pirates... they multiply like locusts.

Indeed. Pirates spawn almost anywhere in uncontrolled systems, at first. If you don't get control over those systems, soon, they spawn better and better ships at the moment. At some stage, about turn 40 or so I think, they start to spawn invasion fleets that will take over undefended systems. If the systems are taken over, they produce new pirates and so on...

What this story needs is a good writer with a good plot.

Maybe there could be minor factions that represent different facets of society. For example, Terrorists are generated by worlds with unhappy populances, Pirates stem from economically poor worlds, and are attracted towards rich trade routs, while Zealots are not fond of research-happy worlds and try to keep exploration forces from defiling untapped worlds and artifacts.