kazi wrote:
I would like a few game-wrecking random encounters (like the "Grand Menaces" from SOTS). Terrorists would be one of them. Basically something damaging enough to really upset the "galactic order" and maybe force players to ally against a common enemy. They need to be something drastic, capable of crippling a powerful player or wiping out a smaller one.

Oh, you mean like when the stars are right and R'lyeh rises from the oceans and great Cthulhu awakens from his slumber for a time? Or perhaps the monotonous flutes stop playing for some reason and the nuclear chaos of the universe that is Azathoth stops being the Blind Idiot God and starts being unbridled destruction.

Nosferatiel wrote:
Actually one of the first options in the games2gether approach was a vote on the background story for the pirates. Sadly that vote seems not to have been archived, but here's the old thread dealing with the argument, if our endless space pirates should be people abducting 1) aliens, 2) fanatics or 3) criminals (that option won): /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/10982-discussion-pirates-and-why-the-third-options-dosent-work

That's too bad. I like the idea of fanatics a lot more. But I suppose if we go back and revote on things, the game will never get made :P

I'm going to be honest about something, I hate pirates in Space 4X games because NOBODY has done them justice.



In almost all the space strategy games I've played pirates are setup as a suicidal militia group, often with powerful vessels causing general havoc with my fledgling empire that only effects my economy by forcing me to rebuild my military vessels.



You know who does that? Terrorists or merc groups. Pirates have one soul purpose - to steal valuables in the fastest and most painless way without anybody catching them.



The other problem with pirates is eventually they are easily wiped out mid-game with a click, something which to this day no government on are planet has managed to do. I'd like to imagine pirates would flourish in space what with all the traffic with trade vessels and shipping lanes as empires span the galaxies.



I honestly believe that pirates in a real space 4X game should be something dealt with in the background that directly effect your economy, like countering espionage. The larger your empire, the more serious Pirates would effect your income. You could implement research or building options to counter this. I suppose patrol vessels could be possible, but pirates would naturally be scared of by them - not confronting them in medium size attack cruisers.



As for those nasty ships that could seriously harass your empire? Fanatics.



Fanatical zealots that have some grand or twisted design for the galaxy. Zealots usually have one purpose, they can be fanatically suicidal and they CAN BE anybody. More then anything they can be a true memorable terror on the galaxy.



The possibilities for what Zealots are capable of are endless. True wild cards. They could suddenly appear in a massive fleet, corrupt your societies, unleash bio attacks on your planets, even take over your ships by turning your crew. You could even add a nice dlc package where some crazed charismatic zealot prophet suddenly appears ready to burn the galaxy in his purifying light of destruction.



Could you imagine your on turn 102 and suddenly everything in the galaxy goes nuts? Comm channels are taken over by his or her memorable voice as ships go reported missing, solar systems go off the grid or turn against you followed by serious wave attacks that effect all players. True acts of terror.



Do I expect to see this happen? Probably not this late in development, but I can dream...



I'm just so tired of pirates attacking my military fleets in space games in suicidal rushes until I wipe them out; unless they plan stealing my ships....they just aren't doing it properly.



The only solution otherwise I could see is to have the pirates be some fallen race, who lost their home world but still retain power via their ships flying through space without a home. True buccaneers of the stars (vs what your average pirate would be flying) attacking out of greed and for resources (ships/parts). Not simply to destroy your ships and fly away. A pirate is a pirate after all and nothing makes a pirate smile like gol-er dust.



Something to think about Amplitude...

Monarch wrote:
I sense great sarcasm with this one.

No sarcasm, just trying to be funneh. I like the idea of great disruptions of the order too, but I was just offering a Lovecraftian spin on such possible "events."

Nosferatiel wrote:
Actually one of the first options in the games2gether approach was a vote on the background story for the pirates. Sadly that vote seems not to have been archived, but here's the old thread dealing with the argument, if our endless space pirates should be people abducting 1) aliens, 2) fanatics or 3) criminals (that option won): /#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/10982-discussion-pirates-and-why-the-third-options-dosent-work

This actually highlights one minor problem with public voting, people tend to vote with what their comfortable or familiar with. That doesn't mean its the best option or well thought out. Pirates are cool, they have been romanticized since the golden age 1600 with serious flair, I love pirates myself. I grew up back in the early 90's playing the original Pirates!



On the other hand fanatics are unpredictably and down right scary. When it comes to "bad" things people vote for what they feel comfortable with, or feels less threatening. Pirates= swashbuckling men after gold - even smugglers like Han. Fanatics have the suicidal tendency to charge into danger for what they believe in, which can be down right insane. Not to mention you never know what your drinking when they hand you a cup of cool aid.



Then it comes to how they are implemented ingame, if pirates were implemented properly I'd be all for them - but thats not the case here again. Pirates have become a broken cycle for space 4X. From a developers point of view fanatics could have serious game changing events that could breakup 1,2,3,4 cycle that most 4X games follow with a light flavor, that would be easier to implement vs introducing a whole new pirate economic model.

Personally I like the inclusion of "Fanatics" or even "Terrorists" along with Pirates. Fanatics could become a result of happiness levels that are too high, showing up in those systems and causing all kinds of havoc until they're put down. Same thing with Terrorists, except if happiness falls to 0% or lower. Pirates should be more like a minor faction, instead of just appearing randomly in unoccupied systems, they should have bases of operations and be able to upgrade their military capacities and also be able to be irradicated should you locate and then siege their base-worlds.

Maybe one of the yet to be released factions could be related to the pirates somehow? That would explain where they come from, and give that faction some interesting mechanics, like hiring privateers and what not, or providing havens for pirates in exchange for some pay off...

In one of my first plays, I was in easy mode, if memory serves. I ran into a weird hissho empire.... the hissho controlled 5 planets and pirates controlled 4 other systems which - to my eye- were former hissho systems...

So if you neglect the pirates... they multiply like locusts.

Well. If you want pirates to be really strong and able to invade worlds then just make them a faction.



Makes no sense that some pirate scum have giant space ships. Just consider the time an resource it takes an entire civilization to build a warship. So where do the constantly spawning pirate ships come from. Annoying.



Would be cool if there were a pirate base hidden somewhere.

I kinda agree with your idea about pirates being a "behind the scene" nuisance (or allies ? Like Sins, you can bribe them to go and annoy your opponent).

What I don't like is your idea of everything going nuts at turn 102 (and I understand it's an example). GalCiv 2 has something like this, where planets / ships of everyone form a brand new faction (Jagged Alliance IIRC). It's annoying, to say the least. I understand it can be refreshing if it's your 50th game, but most of the time it just srews your experience up.

It's important to remember that pirates aren't a one big allied happy family. Pirates are not united in anyway, they're in groups or even solo just raiding trade ships and such. They're supposed to attack your trade routs to annoy rather than your empire or your fleets. If anything they should have a hit and run tactic and being on the run if more ships then they can handle come.

yes, +1 for more abstracted piracy wich only steals money, and using police cutters to fight that.



And rename the suicidal attackers in some sort of terrorist would be cool too

Inquisitioner wrote:
It's important to remember that pirates aren't a one big allied happy family. Pirates are not united in anyway, they're in groups or even solo just raiding trade ships and such.

THATS NOT TRUE!!!!1111eleven



Ulli

Member of Pirate Party Germany





Okok, back to topic. Yeah, pirates as a united faction in a game doesn't make any sense. And, to be honest: In most cases pirates do not have their own "type" of ships... they fly whatever they could get, imo.

Monarch wrote:
That's too bad. I like the idea of fanatics a lot more. But I suppose if we go back and revote on things, the game will never get made :P

Yes, indeed. I voted for aliens and it was a close thing, if I remember correctly.

Sharidann wrote:
In one of my first plays, I was in easy mode, if memory serves. I ran into a weird hissho empire.... the hissho controlled 5 planets and pirates controlled 4 other systems which - to my eye- were former hissho systems...

So if you neglect the pirates... they multiply like locusts.

Indeed. Pirates spawn almost anywhere in uncontrolled systems, at first. If you don't get control over those systems, soon, they spawn better and better ships at the moment. At some stage, about turn 40 or so I think, they start to spawn invasion fleets that will take over undefended systems. If the systems are taken over, they produce new pirates and so on...

What this story needs is a good writer with a good plot.

Maybe there could be minor factions that represent different facets of society. For example, Terrorists are generated by worlds with unhappy populances, Pirates stem from economically poor worlds, and are attracted towards rich trade routs, while Zealots are not fond of research-happy worlds and try to keep exploration forces from defiling untapped worlds and artifacts.