if you want simulated tennis that follows the kiss doctrine play pong

if you want simulated flight games that follows the kiss doctrine play top gun for the snes

if you want simulated fight games that follows kiss play karate kid for the snes

now seriously the reason i quit WOW was not that it was a money grubbing game that kept squeezing money from me and dragging the story on an on .. naw it was because the game started to get simple and stupid i mean from 50 usable spells on each char to 25 usable spell and on quest's i get the .... hey stupid this arrow will lead you to the quest mob or object you seek " and the boss battle come in two flavors tank and spank ... and tank spank and move, up from the epic get that kill that use that lower hp by use of pendant use that sword summon that mob you win .... the depth and complexity of the game produced total immersion.

bottom line ... GO PLAY ZELDA...

Hellrour wrote:
What I am saying is simple. I have no trouble with some complexity, that will drag you deapper into the game, thats great. But don't make working the controls like a friggen abacus.

That's not simple. That's very difficult.



As said previously on this thread, it can be done. Anyone can learn to play go, but it's one of the most deep board games in the world.



However, we _want_ more complexity - if we just wanted a deep puzzle game, we'd be playing a deep puzzle game. We want immersion, story, complexity, and depth. If we didn't, we might as well be using counters on a blank board with a ruleset.



I completely disagree re: invasions too - I've always hated managing them... I guess it's just personal preference, but I love invasions the way they are. I see ES as a space game, not a "marine managing" game.

I would argue that too many games these days are "Keeping it Simple" for the "Stupid" ... enough already! Let's get a space 4x that Stephen Hawking and Neil deGrasse Tyson designed. Wait, that'd be boring...

What I am saying is simple. I have no trouble with some complexity, that will drag you deapper into the game, thats great. But don't make working the controls like a friggen abacus. keep the controls simple and easy to understand. Let what you learn in one part of the game flow into the next lvl of complexity. Its a real pain to have to learn 20 different skill sets just to build ships, move them and then fight them. I'll admit as it stands the game is very good but lacks a needed lvl of complexity. For instance, trade..... It just happens or it doesen't after you build the improvement or 4 of them. Mabe a trade ship can be made to set up your own trade routes. Invasion is another one that has been beaten like a dead horse so no need to beat it some more.

ArrowLance wrote:
I want the game to be complex. When I want to play a simple TBS I'll play Advanced Wars.

I Agree! +1

If you want to just move ships around, try 10 Min. Space Strategy.

Here's a Let's Play video: Let's Play



Gratuitous Space Battles is also available for quick mindless fun.

I'm tired of this whole discussion of "depth vs complexity vs detail." Sounds like a whole bunch of semantics to me, and I'm not sure what is what anymore!



I just wanted to pitch that I also want more A.I. I'm confused as to how the AI in planet management works. I find that if I set it right after colonizing (I always set it to balanced), it will work on system improvements and never any planet exploitations until every system improvement I have has been built! And I have never seen the AI in my planet manager correct anomalies for me yet either. I find myself late game checking every planet in every system, cancelling out the Ind-Dust Conversion so I can have them correct anomalies I've researched.

ArrowLance wrote:
Complexity and depth usually come hand in hand. The game most certainly is lacking in depth, particularly in combat.

Hum. Game of go would be a counter-example.

DracuSRL wrote:
if you want simulated tennis that follows the kiss doctrine play pong

if you want simulated flight games that follows the kiss doctrine play top gun for the snes

if you want simulated fight games that follows kiss play karate kid for the snes

now seriously the reason i quit WOW was not that it was a money grubbing game that kept squeezing money from me and dragging the story on an on .. naw it was because the game started to get simple and stupid i mean from 50 usable spells on each char to 25 usable spell and on quest's i get the .... hey stupid this arrow will lead you to the quest mob or object you seek " and the boss battle come in two flavors tank and spank ... and tank spank and move, up from the epic get that kill that use that lower hp by use of pendant use that sword summon that mob you win .... the depth and complexity of the game produced total immersion.

bottom line ... GO PLAY ZELDA...

Right. There are already titles that have very low learning curves and are easily acquired. Without added depth and complexity in this game single player will remain unsatisfying and multiplayer will become repetitive.

Implayed Masters of Orion about 500 times just could not get enough of the game. I played it till I burned out the friggen disk, not kidding. It had just enough complexity to be fun, while still being simple and it played fast. One turn didn't feel like 4 hours. When MOO2 came out I ran out and got it first thing. It was very buggy, very complex and VERY slow. Could take an hour to play 1 turn. In short I hated it, never finished a single game.



I played some other galatic empire games as well, but they were all Meh, so much so I can't even remember their names. Then came Sword of the Stars. LOVED IT, i still play as the hivers on hard in max sized games. If you ever played it, you know how long a game that can be, lol. Then came SotS 2, again got it as soon as I could from steam. Put aside the fact that it was a beta that I got, becouse they have ironed out most all the bugs now. But the game play is SO slow, just to complex, and again turns can take hours. I will never finished a game of that either.



So realy what i am trying to say here is K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. Depth of game is great, content of game is great. To much complexity and the game just seems to drag on forever, and you never get that EPIC WIN that we are all looking for in time sink games like ES. As long as we can see that the sun could raise soon over the hill, we will keep trudging on.



So by all means add all the stuff you want to, just keep the interface simple and keep the game flowing on to the next turn.



I am now 96 hours into the game, hay I have no life. Still loving it. Still learning new ways to F over the AI. And reporting any bugs a find. Game is great can't wait to see more.

Slar wrote:
I think you mean you want the game to have depth. If you want a game that is complex (hard to play), then find another. I think we will have plenty of depth here. The real issue is making it logical and still fun to play.

Complexity and depth usually come hand in hand. The game most certainly is lacking in depth, particularly in combat.

Gungy wrote:
I'm kinda with the OP on this one, but with a difference. Automation, it's that simple. Give the game a set of options to Automate some of the more complex features. So when it comes down to it, people like himself, or Me on a lazy day. Can just jump in, stomp the galaxy and feel Evil. And if we wish, take over control ourselves, and explore that side of the game too.[...]

I can relate to that.



Basically it's all about refining your scope. The less automation however the more granulation there should be. Meaning that people who are dedicating their time to turning the knobs should have a significant advantage at the expense of taking longer.

Likewise if you want to leave the little detail to staggered levels of fuzzy automation then you should be rewarded with faster pace. Some people do want more control, some others do not and this seems like a good compromise. Question is how would you make the AI understand on which level you are playing? If the game becomes trivial the moment you are finetuning then all what would be left to play would be multiplayer.

I think you mean you want the game to have depth. If you want a game that is complex (hard to play), then find another. I think we will have plenty of depth here. The real issue is making it logical and still fun to play.

ArrowLance wrote:
I want the game to be complex. When I want to play a simple TBS I'll play Advanced Wars.

Gungy wrote:
I'm kinda with the OP on this one, but with a difference. Automation, it's that simple. Give the game a set of options to Automate some of the more complex features. So when it comes down to it, people like himself, or Me on a lazy day. Can just jump in, stomp the galaxy and feel Evil. And if we wish, take over control ourselves, and explore that side of the game too.



I know real Die hard 4X fans will say I'm blaspheming, but think of it another way. Too many people look at games like this, and then move on. Simply because they see something that will be too time consuming and difficult to play. With the option to just stomp the galaxy whilst the game takes care of the research and Diplomacy and various other features the game requires, but are not needed for the player to control to simply comp stomp. Think about it, what I'm saying makes sense, with time people who pick up the game for the quick fix galaxy romp. Will start to take control of features themselves to improve their empires. Want a good example of this in action, just look at EVE. I've played since 2003/4. The more complex features of that game elude most of the people who play it. Yet they still play it because they have missions and simple PVP they can take part in, without having to learn the finer points of manufacturing. And should they want to learn that side of the game it is there, but not required to play and enjoy the game.



If there was to be a way for this game to achieve a similar effect, it will be far more successful at getting people who would not normally play a game like this to do so. which can only lead to a better more enriched game for us all.

To point to a game with the best automation features I have ever seen would be to point to Hearts of Iron III. You can automate any facet of the game you like so you only control the parts you want or are comfortable controlling. You could even automate your combat, or only certain theaters of combat, or even single army/corps/units!

I'm kinda with the OP on this one, but with a difference. Automation, it's that simple. Give the game a set of options to Automate some of the more complex features. So when it comes down to it, people like himself, or Me on a lazy day. Can just jump in, stomp the galaxy and feel Evil. And if we wish, take over control ourselves, and explore that side of the game too.



I know real Die hard 4X fans will say I'm blaspheming, but think of it another way. Too many people look at games like this, and then move on. Simply because they see something that will be too time consuming and difficult to play. With the option to just stomp the galaxy whilst the game takes care of the research and Diplomacy and various other features the game requires, but are not needed for the player to control to simply comp stomp. Think about it, what I'm saying makes sense, with time people who pick up the game for the quick fix galaxy romp. Will start to take control of features themselves to improve their empires. Want a good example of this in action, just look at EVE. I've played since 2003/4. The more complex features of that game elude most of the people who play it. Yet they still play it because they have missions and simple PVP they can take part in, without having to learn the finer points of manufacturing. And should they want to learn that side of the game it is there, but not required to play and enjoy the game.



If there was to be a way for this game to achieve a similar effect, it will be far more successful at getting people who would not normally play a game like this to do so. which can only lead to a better more enriched game for us all.

Im not looking for another Space Empires 5 here! but i just feel that the game should be logical and understanable in areas where you need the detail.

ArrowLance wrote:
I want the game to be complex. When I want to play a simple TBS I'll play Advanced Wars.

Hahaa, good shout!

Hellrour wrote:
Implayed Masters of Orion about 500 times just could not get enough of the game. I played it till I burned out the friggen disk, not kidding. It had just enough complexity to be fun, while still being simple and it played fast. One turn didn't feel like 4 hours. When MOO2 came out I ran out and got it first thing. It was very buggy, very complex and VERY slow. Could take an hour to play 1 turn. In short I hated it, never finished a single game.



I played some other galatic empire games as well, but they were all Meh, so much so I can't even remember their names. Then came Sword of the Stars. LOVED IT, i still play as the hivers on hard in max sized games. If you ever played it, you know how long a game that can be, lol. Then came SotS 2, again got it as soon as I could from steam. Put aside the fact that it was a beta that I got, becouse they have ironed out most all the bugs now. But the game play is SO slow, just to complex, and again turns can take hours. I will never finished a game of that either.



So realy what i am trying to say here is K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. Depth of game is great, content of game is great. To much complexity and the game just seems to drag on forever, and you never get that EPIC WIN that we are all looking for in time sink games like ES. As long as we can see that the sun could raise soon over the hill, we will keep trudging on.



So by all means add all the stuff you want to, just keep the interface simple and keep the game flowing on to the next turn.



I am now 96 hours into the game, hay I have no life. Still loving it. Still learning new ways to F over the AI. And reporting any bugs a find. Game is great can't wait to see more.

I want the game to be complex. When I want to play a simple TBS I'll play Advanced Wars.