craigbic wrote:
Why not be able to research one tech in each of the four major tech tree groups at the same time?

exactly... and just split the research points between them

OrionSol wrote:
I guess my thing is... no one does research one thing at a time... it would take forever in real application.

This isn't true at all though, if you look at society in general big break throughs come from focus in a field.

Most of the technologies would take an immense amount of focus from the race we aren't talking about a country slowly learning things we are talking about MAJOR breakthroughs for entire empires. For a civilisation to be able to decode a completly alien language that could but be unspeakable, unreadable and perhaps even unhearable to them and create a way of conversing in this language while also making the scientific breakthrough to travel through worm holes is far more ridiculous.

I would like to lend my support for almost everything OrionSol mentioned in the opening post.



Whatever the developers decide to do with this game, I feel like there will always be good ideas that are too time consuming to implement, or more important for some and not others. I am an avid modder, and have published numerous mods for games over the last 7 or 8 years. I read some dev articles about modding and how it was an early design concept. Beyond modifying xml data to create custom techs and so on, I cant stress enough the importance of being able to add some kind of button to the interface that will open a new overlay. That overlay could be a playground of many, many opportunities. I really hope the devs add some flexible modding options to the game, it would be awful if all we could do is modify spreadsheet style data ala moo3. I have a feeling that people who have been yearning for a modern iteration of this kind of game for a long time will appreciate the ability to adapt it and expand upon it over time.

Zenicetus wrote:
That could be interesting, but here are a couple of possible counter-arguments for the idea:



1) The current system makes your tech development more nimble. It's easy to quickly change direction according to circumstances, because no single tech takes very long to research. For example, If I open up the discovery of Titanium-70 on the map, I can choose just one tech to rush development on what I need to terraform/colonize that planet. I don't have to think about balancing or pulling research points from the rest of the tree. I just queue it up next in line.



2) One-at-a-time tech research is probably easier to program for the AI, especially in terms of standard strategies for each race, as well as "reactive" strategies to cope with changing circumstances. Ideally, if an enemy faction discovers its main weapon type is ineffective against your defenses, you want it to quickly switch to a better weapon tech, so it remains competitive (because that's the kind of thing you'll be doing, as the human player). Linear research facilitates that. With concurrent tech research, the AI has to make more decisions about what to prioritize.



I suspect reason #2 (can the AI handle it?) is the main reason why ES works this way, and why so many other games do also. My personal guideline for suggesting game improvements is always to think about what the AI can handle, as the main priority. Many potentially cool ideas just end up being exploits for the player, if the AI can't do it as well as the player can.

I guess my thing is... no one does research one thing at a time... it would take forever in real application.

craigbic wrote:
Why not be able to research one tech in each of the four major tech tree groups at the same time?

That could be interesting, but here are a couple of possible counter-arguments for the idea:



1) The current system makes your tech development more nimble. It's easy to quickly change direction according to circumstances, because no single tech takes very long to research. For example, If I open up the discovery of Titanium-70 on the map, I can choose just one tech to rush development on what I need to terraform/colonize that planet. I don't have to think about balancing or pulling research points from the rest of the tree. I just queue it up next in line.



2) One-at-a-time tech research is probably easier to program for the AI, especially in terms of standard strategies for each race, as well as "reactive" strategies to cope with changing circumstances. Ideally, if an enemy faction discovers its main weapon type is ineffective against your defenses, you want it to quickly switch to a better weapon tech, so it remains competitive (because that's the kind of thing you'll be doing, as the human player). Linear research facilitates that. With concurrent tech research, the AI has to make more decisions about what to prioritize.



I suspect reason #2 (can the AI handle it?) is the main reason why ES works this way, and why so many other games do also. My personal guideline for suggesting game improvements is always to think about what the AI can handle, as the main priority. Many potentially cool ideas just end up being exploits for the player, if the AI can't do it as well as the player can.

Honestly, I like that there are only 5-10 ships per fleet. Having dozens kinda lessens the importance of each ship, and realistically, a ship like these (esp. huge dreadnaught types) wouldtake SO many resources, energy, and crewmembers to run it. Look at the US Navy, we only have 12 aircraft carriers total (there are 22 in the world combined). Obviously, we're talking futurist means of production and a much larger population, but we're also talking collossal ships spanning many miles in length.



*where i got my navy facts http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment

I want more control over my fleets and to have them be a little bigger (not 50+ my laptop probably couldn't support that many but maybe 30-40 ships), I would like other races/species so long as they are done well and all feel unique, one of the things I love about Endless Space is the fact that all the races are in someway original and interesting and having a bunch of random knockoff races would detract from that.

Francech wrote:
I agree that we can borrow things from other games, but designing a RTS game inside a Turn Based Strategy game is not a task that is possible i fear. There are more pressing matters than adding micro possibilities to fleet battles.



I like very much as it is now. It could be a focus for a later expansion to dig on the idea of more fleet battles with more options.

I do LOVE Total War style combat... but, I also like this "card play" method... I wonder if a blend could be possible

I agree that we can borrow things from other games, but designing a RTS game inside a Turn Based Strategy game is not a task that is possible i fear. There are more pressing matters than adding micro possibilities to fleet battles.



I like very much as it is now. It could be a focus for a later expansion to dig on the idea of more fleet battles with more options.

Fleet combat cinematics of Homeworld "look" very similar to ES. Many people have suggested the formation part of homeworld, in particular, would fit well into ES. We can "borrow" ideas from all games, not only 4x.

Just a small question, why are so many that talks here and then about Homeworld? I think it's a really great game, and i loved it very much, but it's a RTS and it has nothing to do with a 4x game.

Akilae wrote:
I agree with OrionSol on some aspects. I'm not very knowledgeable because i've played moo2 a loong time a go for a brief moment, never finished a game because it was from a friend of mine and i didnt get the chance. I played Homeworld and Sins of a Solar Empire. Never finished Homeworld and Sins i finished some games but didn't got experienced with it. I played Sid Mayers Alpha centaury, that i absolutely love. Even if it isn't the same genre it gave me some ideas that could be implemented and grown up from. I hope this to be my first true game of the genre that i can deepen my knowledge.

Just finished my first game, and lost...

But i could feel the same about too few ships, lack of depth on the visual candy around research. I absolutely love the descriptions alpha centaury had on their techs.

As diplomacy goes we are too restricted. We should have more options from the start.

The research could very well be as described above. I'll develop how my first game went in the proper place.

I played all those games as well, but Masters of Orion was always my fav...



That said, I think this game has the potential to be a great leap forward and heir to that 4x legacy, it just needs ALOT of work

Certainly a great start though

I agree with OrionSol on some aspects. I'm not very knowledgeable because i've played moo2 a loong time a go for a brief moment, never finished a game because it was from a friend of mine and i didnt get the chance. I played Homeworld and Sins of a Solar Empire. Never finished Homeworld and Sins i finished some games but didn't got experienced with it. I played Sid Mayers Alpha centaury, that i absolutely love. Even if it isn't the same genre it gave me some ideas that could be implemented and grown up from. I hope this to be my first true game of the genre that i can deepen my knowledge.

Just finished my first game, and lost...

But i could feel the same about too few ships, lack of depth on the visual candy around research. I absolutely love the descriptions alpha centaury had on their techs.

As diplomacy goes we are too restricted. We should have more options from the start.

The research could very well be as described above. I'll develop how my first game went in the proper place.

Greetings friends and gentle beings, I am Orion Sol.



I’ve been using the name Orion Sol for all my gaming eons. One of the reasons why is because my favorite game of all time is the original Masters of Orion (and 2).

I wanted to get that out there so you all know the reasons I am posting my feedback on Endless Space.



First things first, I am excited to see a new “real” 4x game come out that could potentially be the rightful heir to MOO and MOO2. I purchased and tried the game on a variety of settings so far so I could get a feel for different aspects of the game.



I’ve tried smaller galaxies with many or few races, stars, planets and visa versa



Also, I’ve done the largest galaxy with variable settings as well.



Also, before any fanboys yell “it’s ALPHA!” … I know, it’s Alpha… this feedback to see if we can get some improvements I think would make the game “cooler” before it comes out.

I will break the feedback down into brackets.



Technology = on the technology arena, I feel that the way it is design is “ok”. I like the various research trees and arenas, but I HATE the “Research only one tech at a time” aspect. No civilization would spend ALL its research eggs into one basket. So, I suggest having your research have a point scale, and you can vary how many points go into what tree, and then you can focus one aspect in each tree.



Also, the research goes too fast as it is and you upgrade fleets, planets ships et cetera - far too quickly and often. There is no time for early techs to be exploited or manipulated. Although, if you take my advice on allow research to be spent on all 4 areas… this may partially fix that problem.



There are too many redundant planetary techs that build on one another. For instance, I can research 3-4 structures that improve food output fairly early in the game, and building those all on a system would be silly. Once you gain a new tech, the older version should simply be upgraded for a cost or something.

Some of the techs are overpowered, adding 40% improvements to this or that… is too much.



The Species = I know it is alpha, and I know there are at least 3 more coming… but I just have to say… give us more races!!! I’m sure you all could come up with tons.

I personally think the galaxy would be far more diverse in species, and races within those species.



Examples:



Humanoid Species = Humans, Syphons and, Horatios, Cyborgs etc

Insect Species = Cravers, Acartoids, Waspians, Hivers etc

Single Cell Species = Amobians, Bacterians, Viralian

Avian Species: Tertadocans, Eagallions, Dova

Crystalline Species: Solicans, Carbonecians

Aquatic Species: Pices, Aquarions,

Reptile Species: Saurons, Sslythars, Raptacons



Each Species would have a few races that each race would have the primary stats of the species but then some major differences between them

Example: Humanoids = Diplomatic Bonus



Humans get more trading, Syphons get more technology, and Cyborgs get more production… but they all get Diplomatic





Add is natural hatred for some races against others. All carbon life hates Single Cells, but Crystalline species love them.

Avians and Aquatics get along because they are both “spatial thinkers” and don’t ever really occupy the same regions of planets. However, Reptile and Avians hate eachother and are almost at war when they meet one another.



The Galaxy: There needs to be more things IN the galaxy that can cause problems. There are TONS of resources… almost too many – even on galaxies with few. But there are no problematic things in galaxy.



Space Pirates are a start… but there needs to be others…



For instance, black holes, nebula, quasars, nova/supernova, special anomalies and so on.



These things would be very problematic to early and even mid level tech civilizations. Black holes could devour ships if you get to close, and be the cause travel issues/block points. Scientifically we know there is a Supermassive black hole in the center of all galaxies. Nebulas are all over, they tend to have brand new stars in them, and often are sights of nova/supernova – bad places to try and find or colonize planets because of the radiation etc.



Add Space creatures, like The Nebula Gas Giant Fleet Eater!



Combat: This is “ok”, I like the card play aspect for strategy enhancement…. But I really miss being able to tell ships to fire, or having more micro involvement in the battles. The way it is done, gives it almost an uninterested geo-political viewpoint of the battle whereas I would like to have the overbearing admiral control. More like the Total War series would be better.



I think a galactic Empire might have hundreds of ships in a fleet, not a dozen. Even with multiple fleets, you are not getting massive fleets and massive battles. I don’t like being able to only engage one fleet at a time.



If I have 3 fleets of 15 at a star system… I have 45 ships, why can’t I fight with all of them at once?



Also, please restrict combat weapons to certain ranges. Example… torpedoes should be most effective at long range, guns at middle and short range depending on the type, and beams at close range. Until much better tech is researched anyhow.



Why is there no retreat option?

Again…

Why is there no retreat option?



Make it a card perhaps that could be countered?



Diplomacy: This is just horrible and needs a ton of work. If I don’t ask… empires NEVER contact me for trade deals, alliances, nothing.

Also, Diplomacy shouldn’t need to be researched… why would I be able to travel between stars, but not know how to offer a trade agreement? This is just silly. Diplomacy, if done right, would be a meta game within this game… even a game changer if done correctly. It is so far lacking at this time I don’t even have much in the way of suggestions other than…



Please add an option for a Galactic UN styled organization that get leaders elected, laws passed, member states joining or being hit Galactic sanctions etc.





Ship Design: I find this to be “ok” but there are not enough options on how you want you ships to LOOK. I’d love to be able to choose from 5-10 different ship styles from each class. Coloring to match my empire would be cool



Events: When “big” events happen… you get a box. Wow… pardon my excitement. What should happen is mini-cinematics every time you colonize a planet, research a tech, war or peace are declared, or any other sort of major event.



Add in things like “resource found at x-planet” or “so and so’s star goes nova destroying the entire system!” and so on.







All in in all, I give this Alpha version of the game a solid 5/10, which… for an alpha build is great actually.

It is basically too basic, and too boring and almost overly macro for me in the current build.



Granted, multi-player may make all that much more fun!



I think with even half the improvements I mentioned here, this game could be up to an 8/10 or better.

Why not be able to research one tech in each of the four major tech tree groups at the same time?

Good point about the tech tree. One alternative to the current model (one tech at a time), and your suggestion could be tech levels, so that in the current tech screen the tech advances would happen as expanding concentric rings. I think the tech trees are already organized in to about twelve concentric rings. So after researching tech level I you would get the first kinetic upgrade, colonize tundra, first tech improvements etc. And by reaching tech level II the improvements on the next circle would be simultaneously available.



Or if this would limit choice too much, there could be an option to select a sector from one of the four tech trees what to research next. As in, researching level I of the south/exploration tree would open up arid and tundra colonization techs, but nothing else.

SomethingBlue wrote:
Well, there is a faction creator planned, so that would help flesh out the available factions incredibly.

Oh man that will be SWEET! I can't wait to get my hands on that when it becomes available!

Well, there is a faction creator planned, so that would help flesh out the available factions incredibly.

doguso wrote:


I also disagree about having 16 races just to have races. 8 races is already a lot, to have 16 just to have 16 would eventually destroy the creativity of the game.

Maybe I'm not as efficient as I could be as this is the first true 4x game I played in a long time, but I don't think the time is too off. I'd rather have completely unique races that are not similar to another. But that's just me, I don't necessarily mind either way.

I just think the galaxy could have a great deal of diversity in species/races.



Lets say the Insectoid species all have +10% productions...

However,

The Hivers would get +15% defense in star systems they own...

The Wasperons have +10% to offense attack, and +5% to missile techs

Anticoids have another 5% production on top = so 15% total increase production, and 5% to construction tech research



They would all look different, and generally be the same when it comes to production, but they would be fairly different from eahother in other ways.



Then, have 8 total species - each with 3 races or so... for a total of 24 chose-able races, from 8 very different species.



All Humanoids could get +10% diplomacy and 5% to trade

United Empire/Terrans get another 10% trade and 5% towards dust related research

Sophans get say 10% increase to research

Cyborg/Cloners get +10% production



This would allow a much more diverse and interesting galaxy

I agree with most of your points. I especially love to see the tech research be allowed to split (makes a LOT more sense to me) and for a way to create larger fleet battles. It is odd (and a little annoying) that it's normal to have 3-4 ships 200 turns in. After 200 years (in game) from becoming a space faring race and they can't figure out how to increase ship production? One other problem, while I disagree that the research speed is too fast (although the scientific win is too slow, it'll take easily 500 turns to just research it, 350-400 if you head straight for it and leave yourself defenseless), is that the weapons research is too fast. Every 5-7 turns you can easily get a new defense or weapon module that is 3 times better than what you have. That's about as long as it takes to create one Cruiser. Upgrading isn't a problem (I usually have thousands of credits that go unused as I have nothing to spend it on except retrofitting every 5-6 turns) but it's kind of weird to build a ship then go "Oh we have better weapons, throw these on instead." I fix this, I say throw some tech stuff like "increase the speed at which ships are created" or something that enhances the military function of the empire other than weapons and defense modules.



I also disagree about having 16 races just to have races. 8 races is already a lot, to have 16 just to have 16 would eventually destroy the creativity of the game.

Maybe I'm not as efficient as I could be as this is the first true 4x game I played in a long time, but I don't think the time is too off. I'd rather have completely unique races that are not similar to another. But that's just me, I don't necessarily mind either way.



More stuff that adds realism on a galactic level would be nice too. I love the random events now (although sometimes I wish I knew exactly what they did instead of a blurb, as some don't really tell me what was effected. For example, I remember one event where some rebels blew up some ships, but I couldn't tell what ships were destroyed and where which really bugged me).

I agree with space needing a lot more stuff. I think the game feels one-dimensional in the spacial sense. Everything just feels like points of data. I think there needs to be more features that work on the galaxy level, like nebulas that reduce scanner range, slow ships, affect PIDS on star systems, or restrict warpdrive.

Divine_Moments_of_Truth wrote:
Look at the race selection screen. There is room for at least 14 races. I'm pretty sure additional ones will be implemented in the future.

Right, but races for races sake are kinda boring. Id like to see species split into variable races.

ItsThatJerkster wrote:
I agree with your point on how big fleets can be. It feels disappointing when you only see a handful of battleships/cruiser engage an enemy.

With control over dozens of star systems, 10s of Billions of citizens... I would think I could muster more than 20 ships to defend our empire!

Thanks for all the feedback. It is important to get this type of "first impression" so the game can be made as nice as possible for that. Now that you have done it, I draw your attention to the known bugs thread and suggestions thread below in my sig. Please take a look at the suggestions thread, compare your suggestions to the others, and help us to focus the dev team. You can help by replying below and highlighting the new suggestions you have made, so we can cover new ground when we discuss.

I agree with your point on how big fleets can be. It feels disappointing when you only see a handful of battleships/cruiser engage an enemy.

Look at the race selection screen. There is room for at least 14 races. I'm pretty sure additional ones will be implemented in the future.