I'm of a different opinion: scouts shouldn't be used as toss-away units at all but rather as forward observation units with the purpose of testing and exploring the territory up until making contact with another faction and then withdrawing without engaging i.e. fighting the encountered faction.



I already advocated HERE that, among other things, scout ships should be given a deeper, better and more lasting function/purpose in the game...



In short: scout ships should be difficult to destroy because they are small and lightly armed and their crews are well aware that engaging doesn't make any sense, so it's scout and run all the way. This IMHO has not properly been implemented in ES, where scouts are just weak fast units begging to be trapped as destroyed.

How do you figure that?

If their ships cross paths with any of my ships, my ships are attacked instantly.



That's when they bother me, and I build up a small fleet to obliterate them.

Ahielia wrote:
That's when they bother me, and I build up a small fleet to obliterate them.

Aggression breeds aggression, war breeds war.

adder wrote:
Aggression breeds aggression, war breeds war.

Eye for Eye, huh?

tredecim wrote:
eye for eye, huh? :d

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Eye for an eye?



no, an eye for a head, teach these savages who's boss!

a head for a head?

Come and see, come and see!

A new exchange rate has been set, make you move now and get 1 head for 2 eyes!



Got a head to spare? You'll get 1.5 eyes in return! (special offer, only on Monday)

coyote303 wrote:
The AI actually reflects my own behavior. I don't want no stinking scout coming through my space (or what will eventually become my space). So, I shoot first.



I think it's interesting that there are two distinct camps on this, and both camps think the other is nuts for their short-sighted view!

This. I'm not even remotely interested in a future enemy being allowed to scout my territory and plan what systems they want to attack so as to most efficiently cripple me. And as mentioned in other posts, skirmishes don't always result in war. Mostly don't actually. Testing someone's position has gone on since we first started organizing societies. And anyone going to war over a piddling scout is just looking for war. They are toss away units. In game, and in reality. Sure you pref not to lose em. But not gonna go to a war creating skull pyramids over one.



And I have yet to declare war on anyone. They always oblige. So I guess that makes me one of the 'good' players. Tho I tend towards wars of extermination once someone pisses in my cornflakes. Or surrender with 2 systems handed over.

Sleel wrote:
This. I'm not even remotely interested in a future enemy being allowed to scout my territory and plan what systems they want to attack so as to most efficiently cripple me. And as mentioned in other posts, skirmishes don't always result in war. Mostly don't actually. Testing someone's position has gone on since we first started organizing societies. And anyone going to war over a piddling scout is just looking for war. They are toss away units. In game, and in reality. Sure you pref not to lose em. But not gonna go to a war creating skull pyramids over one.



And I have yet to declare war on anyone. They always oblige. So I guess that makes me one of the 'good' players. Tho I tend towards wars of extermination once someone pisses in my cornflakes. Or surrender with 2 systems handed over.

I still can't agree on this, but it has been said: we have 2 camps on this.

And about scouts being toss away units, that's a very bad (military) point of view. A persons life is always worth the same whether they are "basic" units or specialized groups.

(that's why I've never liked army people :alder

Bloody slaves! They mean nothing to my war machine, and enemy scouts? Food for my young!



The women hunger for war adder, will you not heed the call?

Ahielia wrote:
It's more along the lines of "don't bother me, and I won't bother you".

And it works pretty well that way

n18991c wrote:
I'm of a different opinion: scouts shouldn't be used as toss-away units at all but rather as forward observation units with the purpose of testing and exploring the territory up until making contact with another faction and then withdrawing without engaging i.e. fighting the encountered faction.



I already advocated HERE that, among other things, scout ships should be given a deeper, better and more lasting function/purpose in the game...



In short: scout ships should be difficult to destroy because they are small and lightly armed and their crews are well aware that engaging doesn't make any sense, so it's scout and run all the way. This IMHO has not properly been implemented in ES, where scouts are just weak fast units begging to be trapped as destroyed.

Well said, but often scouts are the glass-type-guys... (in other games too)

Tredecim wrote:
Well said, but often scouts are the glass-type-guys... (in other games too)

Yeah although this is neither really useful in the game nor realistic.

I would suggest altering the scout. Give it no weapons, but a "special ability" of sorts that allows it a good chance to escape from a attack.

Atlantis_Risen wrote:
I would suggest altering the scout. Give it no weapons, but a "special ability" of sorts that allows it a good chance to escape from a attack.

Good idea, good idea!



@ n18: ofc, you are right - but most games work like this..

A special ability from its sensor module right?

Igncom1 wrote:
A special ability from its sensor module right?

For example, or something similar

Igncom1 wrote:
A special ability from its sensor module right?

Something like that. A special scout ability that represents it's excellent speed and sensors.

For a cost in Dust you send the scout on a (distance related) stealth mission to gather intelligence on a system without losing the scout, intelligence gathered stats from the time the scout arrives and lasts for 5 turns.



Sort of ability's like that?

Igncom1 wrote:
For a cost in Dust you send the scout on a (distance related) stealth mission to gather intelligence on a system without losing the scout, intelligence gathered stats from the time the scout arrives and lasts for 5 turns.



Sort of ability's like that?

Sounds good. Like a cloaked intel mission.

Igncom1 wrote:
For a cost in Dust you send the scout on a (distance related) stealth mission to gather intelligence on a system without losing the scout, intelligence gathered stats from the time the scout arrives and lasts for 5 turns.



Sort of ability's like that?

Maybe not quite using dust, perhaps the scout ship could be expensive and only build able a certain number of times, thus leading to it having to be used wisely....



I agree though that weapons and armaments are all really a waste of time on scouts... maybe scouts should have different modules altogether, with more variety offered to players in the support module section...

I think one of the issues is that scouts are, strictly speaking, classified in ES as combatant vessels (just like all other vessels in the game) since they may be used by players wishing so to attack other ships and besiege systems. If scout and colony ships had an individual, distinctively non combatant role more akin to peaceful exploration and/or civilian purpose, then perhaps the AI wouldn't immediately engage them on sight.

True, having my scout ships beeing attacked without provoking the enemy(im just a friendly scout oO') is kinda bad sometimes. I'm not that peacy player like you, but I understand your point of view. Maybe some changes will be made in the near future to allow easier peace treates with AI and players.

I really think that the initial 'cold war' status with newly discovered races should be non-violent (that's why its cold!). If they attack your ships, that's an act of proper war.

Atlantis_Risen wrote:
I really think that the initial 'cold war' status with newly discovered races should be non-violent (that's why its cold!). If they attack your ships, that's an act of proper war.

Yep, it's a bit annoying when I go scouting, meet a new system and boom, Scout dead

Atlantis_Risen wrote:
I really think that the initial 'cold war' status with newly discovered races should be non-violent (that's why its cold!). If they attack your ships, that's an act of proper war.

Reality doesn't really bear this out. There have been plenty of skirmishes between nations on land, in the air and at sea where men have been killed, planes have been shot down and ships have been damaged and sunk that didn't result in war. Some eventually did, some were immediately seized upon as an excuse for war, and some didn't at all, so I think the current situation where attacking someone's ships makes them dislike you but not necessarily go to war is appropriate.

The AI actually reflects my own behavior. I don't want no stinking scout coming through my space (or what will eventually become my space). So, I shoot first.



I think it's interesting that there are two distinct camps on this, and both camps think the other is nuts for their short-sighted view!

I think it should be based on the race. Cravers attacking scouts on sight is not a surprise, but you should be able to pass by a Sophon ship without instant combat.

I like denying information to a possible opponent, so I always go for the kill.



By leaving their home world they technically enter my space, so I am well within my rights to wipe them out and not feel bad about it. 3



But yeah, races like the Cravers get science from killing ships, so it really helps to be feed scouts.

Ahielia wrote:
If a bunch of warships showed up at one of their planets, then I would understand how it could result in a battle, but scout ships?

Meltreness wrote:
True, having my scout ships beeing attacked without provoking the enemy(im just a friendly scout oO') is kinda bad sometimes. I'm not that peacy player like you, but I understand your point of view. Maybe some changes will be made in the near future to allow easier peace treates with AI and players.

Atlantis_Risen wrote:
I really think that the initial 'cold war' status with newly discovered races should be non-violent (that's why its cold!). If they attack your ships, that's an act of proper war.

Francis Gary Powers would probably agree with you. History, however does not.

What do you do when an AI scout enters your territory?



Every system they scout will later, once you go to peace, give them a trade route and thus an advantage.



You might or might not care about this.



But when competing for victory destroying scouts helps to prevent the competition from getting trade-routes and thus improves your odds.

I think it should be based on the race. Cravers attacking scouts on sight is not a surprise, but you should be able to pass by a Sophon ship without instant combat.

Yes, and inversely, if you think an empire is going to be an enemy (like it is usually with Cravers), it only makes sense to attack their scouts.

What the title said.

If a bunch of warships showed up at one of their planets, then I would understand how it could result in a battle, but scout ships?



I like to play peaceful games as much as I can, in almost all RTS I play, and ofc I do it in Endless Space too.



If I met another race in my travels, if they attacked me when we've just met, I couldn't ever trust them again. I don't have much to spare for those who attack unprovoked.

What's more, after I've accepted peace, they keep pestering me for open borders. Is it possible to say to the AI: "Hell no, you attack me unprovoked, I'll shoot you before you're allowed into my land!"?

Fenrakk101 wrote:
I think it should be based on the race. Cravers attacking scouts on sight is not a surprise, but you should be able to pass by a Sophon ship without instant combat.

I would agree with this. Having the AI always attack scouts on site is a drag.

n18991c wrote:
I think one of the issues is that scouts are, strictly speaking, classified in ES as combatant vessels (just like all other vessels in the game) since they may be used by players wishing so to attack other ships and besiege systems. If scout and colony ships had an individual, distinctively non combatant role more akin to peaceful exploration and/or civilian purpose, then perhaps the AI wouldn't immediately engage them on sight.

I've had plenty of seeder ships (without weapons of any kind) being attacked by the AI, whether it is Cravers, Sophons, Amoeba or any of the other races.

I agree that it is not always very logic that the AI attacks your scout just like that.

I believe it should be like this:



"Good" races: never

"neutral" races: chance is 1 out of 3

"Evil" races: always

adder wrote:
I agree that it is not always very logic that the AI attacks your scout just like that.

I believe it should be like this:



"Good" races: never

"neutral" races: chance is 1 out of 3

"Evil" races: always

i think this would be a good way to set the behavior for each faction, currently they don't really serve a reason

Agree with you adder.



If, for example, Sophons attacked a UE colony ship then this serves the purpose because of denying UE the chance to populate another system which, particularly if it's located near Sophon space, could eventually threaten Sophon space (staging ground etc.). However, when it comes to attacking a transport full of civilian settlers, then I believe one would have to think very hard before making a call to destroy it, so like you suggested adder, some thought should go into that and not all races should react aggressively towards scouts and particularly colony ships...



Perhaps there could be a "disable only" command? That could lead to scouts and colony ships turning back after having been engaged, something along the lines of "our colony ship was harassed and our brave settlers have thus decided to turn back.."

n18991c wrote:
Agree with you adder.



If, for example, Sophons attacked a UE colony ship then this serves the purpose because of denying UE the chance to populate another system which, particularly if it's located near Sophon space, could eventually threaten Sophon space (staging ground etc.). However, when it comes to attacking a transport full of civilian settlers, then I believe one would have to think very hard before making a call to destroy it, so like you suggested adder, some thought should go into that and not all races should react aggressively towards scouts and particularly colony ships...



Perhaps there could be a "disable only" command? That could lead to scouts and colony ships turning back after having been engaged, something along the lines of "our colony ship was harassed and our brave settlers have thus decided to turn back.."

Good idea with the disable function

I think this is debatable.

Right now the AI during cold-war pretty much does exactly what seems the most efficient:

Denying scouting and exploration as well as trying to invade unprotected systems.



This behaviour might, of course, piss its victims off but changing it for some races would aso drastically reduce early-game tension and the overall difficulty of the game. "Sophons are my neighbours? Then I don't have to bother protecting my colonies and can freely scout them."

Ahielia wrote:
If I met another race in my travels, if they attacked me when we've just met, I couldn't ever trust them again. I don't have much to spare for those who attack unprovoked.

What's more, after I've accepted peace, they keep pestering me for open borders. Is it possible to say to the AI: "Hell no, you attack me unprovoked, I'll shoot you before you're allowed into my land!"?

Don't see how the game logic is flawed. Why exactly are you accepting peace if you're prepared to shoot them for venturing into your territory? Seems to me you should have stayed cold then.



You need to give the game a little more leeway IMO.

Apheirox wrote:
Why exactly are you accepting peace if you're prepared to shoot them for venturing into your territory?

Because that is exactly what the peace entails, not shooting each other at first sight, in neutral territory no less.

Seems to me you should have stayed cold then.

And that is exactly why I don't accept Open Borders.



It's more along the lines of "don't bother me, and I won't bother you".