supersoaker9 wrote:
So, either tech missiles just enough to force your enemy to use 2 flak per missile

Do multiple weak flaks work against high-level missiles? Like if you have 2x flak with 100 interception accuracy against (say) a 150 interception evasion missile--will the flaks intercept a) all of the time, b) 4/9 of the time, c) none of the time, or d) something else?

I haven't fiddled with my fleets enough lately to have noticed much change, but I have seen posts here and there talking about how missiles seem to have been nerfed. I think it might be a bug, personally, because last I read the description, each flak was only supposed to intercept X missiles per salvo/phase per mod (can't remember which) depending on the level of flak mod, while depending on the level of missile mod, you get so many missiles per salvo (again, per mod).



Ugh, that sounds so clunky and illegible...



Anyway, that's my opinion. As it stands now, I'd say research enough missiles just to make your opponent waste space on flak defense mods to protect himself, and hit him hard then with the kinetics and beam.

FinalStrigon wrote:
I'd say research enough missiles just to make your opponent waste space on flak defense mods to protect himself, and hit him hard then with the kinetics and beam.

That's the problem right now. Opponent doesn't need to waste so much space because a small amount of flak will still get the job done.

fujix wrote:
That's the problem right now. Opponent doesn't need to waste so much space because a small amount of flak will still get the job done.

It's still a little bit less than they can put elsewhere...But yeah, I see what you mean. Like I said, personally, I think this is a bug in the game right now. But I've been auto-ing all my battles for a while now, so I can't really think of anything else to say. Sorry.

Huh, I haven't noticed this, but I also haven't run into any enemies using missiles for a while. Just need to play more. I think it kind of makes sense though, I'm not sure that one should put all missiles on a ship, more like put some missiles on and hope to get a couple through whilst relying on your beams/kinetics for meat and potatoes damage. That's my tactic anyway.

Anyone else noticed that Unstable Torpedos don't need T-70 to be built?

I'm easily defeating 1700+ ower: missiles with around 700-800 ower: flak. The ai is suicide missiling me and it isn't working out too well for them.

the thing is that tech 1 flak gives you 100 interception. that's the only numerical stat is has. as soon as you put a hero on your fleet or have any other bonus to defence (from faction-trait or monopoly) that one number gets boosted. this means if you get a hero with +50% to defensive modules the level 1 tech flak gets just as good as level 6 tech flak which is a pretty massive jump. shooting down missiles gets vastly easier that way.



compare this with the effect on shield. tech level 1 shields have 16 absorption. +50% makes that 24 absorption. tech level 2 shields is 28 absorption. the unbalance is clear here.

DeathSarge wrote:
Anyone else noticed that Unstable Torpedos don't need T-70 to be built?

yeah. and only the first level of laser tech requires hyperium. the later ones don't. tech level 7 (?) kinetics needs orichalcix but the ones before it don't need anything.

I wonder if spamming Level 1 missiles (Ion Torpedoes) would be more effective than teching missiles. If it's true that bonuses affect interception accuracy but not evasion, and that each flak can only block one missile per turn, it looks like only the number of modules matters.



Edit: It looks other people think this is correct?

Evil4Zerggin wrote:
I wonder if spamming Level 1 missiles (Ion Torpedoes) would be more effective than teching missiles. If it's true that bonuses affect interception accuracy but not evasion, and that each flak can only block one missile per turn, it looks like only the number of modules matters.



Edit: It looks other people think this is correct?

I think you are correct.

Try Beat the Fleet.

From my observations, 1 flak block maximum 1 missile.



So, either tech missiles just enough to force your enemy to use 2 flak per missile, or just stick with basic missiles.



Enemy has 10 flak to cover missiles? no problem, use 20 basic torpedoes--128 tons on a BB--and still do 350 damage minimum.

So what do you guys think about missiles and flak in the current version?

I haven't done the math but from experience it works something like this:



If you don't put any flak on your ships they will die gloriously if your opponent uses missiles.

If you put very little flak and your opponent goes missiles only, 90% of the times all missiles will be intercepted. Attack/Defense numbers can even be like 800 for missiles and 100 for flak. Its enough to intercept ALL missiles.

Add a hero to the fleet and the interception rate goes up even more.



So basically what it feels like right now is that researching missiles is useless. Opponent can put on very low amount of basic flak and laugh at you.

Or maybe I'm doing it wrong i dunno lol

Already brought this up.



/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/8286-has-defense-changed



By current testing.



5 Battleships with 19 basic flak modules

vs.

10 Destroyers with 34 Ion Missiles

Result: 14% Missile Efficiency



Each battleship had 68 Missiles incoming on it.

This means each flak module countered exactly 3 missiles.



10 Destroyers with 19 High-end Missiles:

Result: 8% Efficiency



The best result I can see that expresses this effect is if their total interception ability is just summed together, but this would make the lowest end flak *strictly* better than high-end flak. As it stands, I can't explain how missiles function right now if it makes sense from a balance perspective at all.



Realistically this means it probably doesn't.

Evil4Zerggin wrote:
I wonder if spamming Level 1 missiles (Ion Torpedoes) would be more effective than teching missiles. If it's true that bonuses affect interception accuracy but not evasion, and that each flak can only block one missile per turn, it looks like only the number of modules matters.



Edit: It looks other people think this is correct?

Thread revive to comment on this. Two points:



1) We REALLY need a dev to explain how this whole 'interception evasion' thing works. It is so annoying that just nobody knows and we have these random numbers in the game that are completely meaningless because we don't understand them. Please devs, neither your game manual nor Google is of any help, could you PLEASE spill the beans on how the whole missile-flak interplay works?



2) Addressing Zerggin's quoted post: Notice my emphasis in the quote. Zerggin is precisely wrong, the in-game term is not 'per turn' but 'per round' and this may be making all the difference - there are four rounds per phase, remember? Missiles take three rounds (see description ingame) to reach target. Ergo, a single flak module counters not one, but three missile modules per phase which precisely supports Ketobor's findings - or what? Is this how it works?



This seemingly makes flak a much harder counter to missiles than shields are to beams and deflectors to kinetics... but then there is the elusive 'evasion interception' factor we don't know about to factor in.

The interception/evasion numbers are clearly messed up and need to be balanced. And explained, since no one has a clue how they work!



Past that, ships need more HP so they don't die to a single missile practically. Bonus that this lengthens combat which is also desperately needed.



Finally, +attack mods must balance with +defence mods. Nothing in there that can't be done fairly easily, thankfully. Mostly just number fiddling.

Velaux wrote:




Past that, ships need more HP so they don't die to a single missile practically. Bonus that this lengthens combat which is also desperately needed.

Going down the missile tree actually provides you all the big hp modules, so if your going for a missile fight that is one way to counter.





I agree with the consensus here:



1) the missile math is so poorly understood that we really are guessing. It can't be so complicated that it would take a person longer than 10 minutes to explain it, so someone please tell us!

2) My experience also indicates that flak is much stronger against missiles than comparable defenses for other weapons. While missiles are extremely powerful, they are hard countered by flak.

As far as I can tell from a ton of games using various levels of flak, the initial findings still hold true.

• Flak fires in rounds 2, 3, and 4 of each phase.
• With each flak shot, the modified Intercept of the flak is compared against the Avoidance of the missile.
• If intercept is higher, the missile is destroyed. If avoidance is higher, the missile survives the round.
• At the end of round four, all destroyed missiles are shown exploding before impact. The rest impact on the hull and apply damage.
• There is definitely a miss chance for missiles, as occasionally one will fly off to nowhere.
• Defense still adds to intercept, while offense still adds to damage.
  
  

One thing I would mention from this: while level 1 flak will counter level 6 missiles, you have no room to spare on intercept in that case. If the defender has no hero and the attacker successfully plays a card that lowers intercept, the defending fleet is going to get HAMMERED. That means it might be a good idea to give yourself some leeway just in case you get nailed and lose 20% of your intercept value to a card.

oh missed thread. Thx Taliesyn, for clarification of flak mechanics Seems reasonable and without tooltip misunderstanding about that each flak intercepts 1 missile.

Whilst i totally agree there should be a bit more explanation about how missle/flak works..... i actually LIKE how it plays out right now.



I find it a bit more realistic and exciting. (when i'm in the missileering mood, usually i just go plasma)



Sending wave after wave of missiles, trying to get one or two missiles past their defenses for a one shot one kill (or at least mega damage) is loads more satisifying.



The only real issue i have with this scenario is that its a lot of effort when plasma and railguns are more effective. But i kinda like pretending its a sort of Honorverse mod where all battles are fought at range with missiles.



As soon as I figure out how to mod a missile only mentatlity to the game, this is how i'm going to roll...

100% flak intercept is the problem.



Reduce all values by half, is the standard way of checking out a rebalance.

Advent1s wrote:
100% flak intercept is the problem.



Reduce all values by half, is the standard way of checking out a rebalance.

That would simply make flak worthless, as intercept is either/or: Either intercept is higher than avoidance and the missile gets shot down, or avoidance is higher and it doesn't get shot down. Halving intercept values would simply turn flak into zero-effect wasted space.



I suggested elsewhere that flak's chance to intercept should be based on the ratio of intercept to avoidance, but the drawback is that it would make flak incredibly 'leaky', meaning that missile damage would need to be toned way down, and they're already the lowest dps weapons in the game.