[Discussion] Fleets waiting in line at war!

Advent_Solas

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 10, 2012, 8:32:05 AM

To add to the cp discussion you can look at them as your ability to organize mobilize and utilize your ships. when i played eve i noticed a number of small organized fleets could easily overwhelm a larger unorganized fleet. its not always easy to coordinate your pilots efforts.

Pants

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Pants

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300g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 2, 2012, 6:30:59 PM

I've had this problem multiple times -- unsurprisingly, -- with the Crave. They've taken 3 - 4 fleets of their massive end-tier Annihilators and stacked them into one System, while I was struggling to even create my Units fast enough because they would take out one of my fleets by the time my second fleet was even there.

Dinadan

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Dinadan

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 2, 2012, 6:50:13 PM

I think the system there is now is a great way to avoid stacks of doom.

finalhero

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finalhero

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 2, 2012, 8:10:49 PM

My opinion would be implementing something like the total war series and have "reinforcement" join the battle once a ship goes down. However, I would like to see more ships in a fleet.

TheVulture98

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TheVulture98

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12 500g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 2, 2012, 9:51:32 PM

finalhero wrote:
My opinion would be implementing something like the total war series and have "reinforcement" join the battle once a ship goes down. However, I would like to see more ships in a fleet.

I agree totally with both your statements. I think the reinforcement system is one of the best ways to get around this issue. I stated an affinity and awareness of it's possibility myself in the original post.

ETank

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ETank

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14 400g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 3, 2012, 12:08:36 AM

I still prefer the Mount+Blade method of having assistance swoop in from the side, but anything to get allied fleets in the action is good in my world.

Mansen

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Mansen

Enthusiast

19 200g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 3, 2012, 12:27:09 AM

No I'd prefer keeping the fights as is. Though I wouldn't mind speeding up battles a bit. Like a 2x/4x speed option (not to mention cutting some of the "needless" time usage in the report phase, and waiting for that last ship to blow up - sometimes going into other phases)

Gyomb

Digital Librarian

Gyomb

Digital Librarian

24 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 3, 2012, 2:29:59 PM

There is one thing that needs normalizing though :

The choice of our opponents.

Here's the thing :

Yesterday, I played with the Empire against the Hissho.

I had my 2 fleets stacked in a system, the big one, all heroed and a smaller one with spaceships specialized in invasion. I was thinking "ok, my small fleet is protected" (It needs to bey say that the Hissho fleets were a pain in the ass !!)

But I couldn't be more wrong !!

The first Hissho fleets arrive and launch an attack. Which fleet is designated to be their opponents ?? My invading, not very strong vs ships, fleet !!

So I loosed all my ships and only after that, could wipe out this satanés Hissho !

It's a problem. I never know (and I assume we all do) which fleet our fleets will attack or will attack ours.

I hope their will be a fix to that with the release of multiplayer monday, or it will be very frustrating to play !! (even if there is always a way to turn things around)

Mansen

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Mansen

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19 200g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 3, 2012, 3:16:07 PM

Well actually ... The attacker always gets to pick what fleet to use when attacking - you select them in the system fleet list and press attack.lol

The randomness of the defender is fine by me - if you've got weak fleets put them into the hangar until the danger has passed. Same thing with being blockaded.

Zenicetus

Old Timer

Zenicetus

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17 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 3, 2012, 6:55:57 PM

finalhero wrote:
My opinion would be implementing something like the total war series and have "reinforcement" join the battle once a ship goes down. However, I would like to see more ships in a fleet.

Wouldn't the reinforcement idea just be Stacks of Doom by another name? It would drag out combat that would be quicker if the game just went straight to a Stacks of Doom design (which I hope it doesn't).

The reinforcement idea is tactically interesting in Total War games because the battlefield can be approached from different sides, armies have to maneuver against terrain effects, and their movement speed per turn isn't especially fast for a mixed unit army (especially if you're dragging artillery). So it can be a nail-biter to see if you can get a supporting army close enough to reinforce your main army for a battle.

ES doesn't have the same kind of movement restrictions on getting into position. If your fleets have the movement points to arrive in a system, then Boom! you're there. Actually, it would be interesting if star systems were fully modeled as a battlefield, with fleets maneuvering through planet orbits to arrive in time for reinforcing. That would be more like the Total War setup. But it doesn't work like that.

I'm not sure what the answer is to avoiding the fleets-waiting-in-line issue without a total rewrite of the combat system. I just hope it doesn't go to anything resembling Stacks of Doom. There aren't any tactics there; just strategic constraints on who can pump out the most ships and throw them in a mass at the enemy.

VulpesWalker

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VulpesWalker

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 3, 2012, 7:56:10 PM

VieuxChat wrote:
And what would be the point of CP ?

Commanders retain abilities over their selected vessels, while other fleets lack the bonuses

torazoul

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torazoul

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29 000g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 9, 2012, 2:50:40 PM

Op is right and I think allied fleets should be involved in mass battles as well.

Stargem

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Stargem

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22 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 9, 2012, 7:48:44 PM

Maybe we can use the SOTS model, where CP represents how many ships you can field at once during a battle. Once a friendly ship is destroyed, you can draw ships from other fleets to replace that loss for that conflict, so there is an benefit to having other fleets in the area - they just can't leverage their full strength.

XercesBlue

Survivor

XercesBlue

Survivor

27 400g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 9, 2012, 10:15:05 PM

Dr_Mox wrote:
Its odd really, if I'm reading the philosophy/intent of CP in ES right, it should reflect the presence of only one fleet in the system at any given time up to the CP limit?

There should never be more Fleets "stacked to engage all together" in a system at the same time whose combined CP is over the limit set out by the Technology of the Faction they belong to.

Otherwise CP is pointless and frustrating when you can create Stacks anyway and multiple Fleets metaphorically lined up with baseball bats to beat the other kids on the block in an orderly queue.

This makes more sense to me especially if you think of the CP not as what the commander can control but as what your supply lines can support.

SteveTheWild

Newcomer

SteveTheWild

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 10, 2012, 4:19:27 AM

n18991c wrote:
It itself it would be a good idea to have additional fleets participate in the battle, for example as reinforcements to be called upon to replace destroyed ships and also to make battles more spectacular, but I recently encountered Horatio having a full 15 (!) or so fleets with twentytwo CP each parked in its home system and if I hadn't been able to fight them piecemeal then I would never have been able to take that system! So while I'm for it, I can see some negative side-effects already. What do you think?

You really shouldn't have been able to take the system, which is kinda the point that this thread is making.

maybe a negative modifier for each extra fleet you have would balance out the whole "what is the point of CP" arguement. more CP = less fleets = less negative modifier

supersoaker9

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supersoaker9

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13 700g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 2, 2012, 4:27:03 PM

I believe the reason for fleet caps, and one battle per fleet per turn, is to simulate the fact that an enemy may decided to attack several planets at once within a system. In conjuction with the fact that ES cannot differentiate planet from planet, it simply does not make sense to have multifleet battles.

In fact, with the artificial limits applied to fleets and fleet battles, there are some very interesting defensive and offensive strategies and tactics that can be employed. For those that need examples, fear not for by Monday, you may just have these tactics used against you.

Advent_Solas

Newcomer

Advent_Solas

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 10, 2012, 8:35:20 AM

And id rather it stay as is, ive played many a game where my higher cp has made the difference against better equiped fleets.

Alexodia

Newcomer

Alexodia

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 11, 2012, 2:23:21 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
As a british man, this type of civil conduct in war is most spiffing!

This is because you are all still mad that we yanks fiqured out hiding behind rocks and shooting worked better ^^. (I kid I kid dont hit me)

Alexodia

Newcomer

Alexodia

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 11, 2012, 2:25:06 PM

Why not instead of stacking the fleets it shows multiple battle running were even fleets fight it out then survivors fight a final battle all in 1 cinematic. Complete with maneuvering unless something about dust means ships cant change directions.

DakkaDon

Newcomer

DakkaDon

Newcomer

12 years ago

Jun 11, 2012, 2:30:17 PM

You know that genuinely isnt a terrible idea, and it wouldn't be especially hard to implement either. Have some internets as a reward for your quick thinking.