[Discussion] Ship Sizes epic enough? - Endless Space

[Discussion] Ship Sizes epic enough?

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Evil4Zerggin

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Evil4Zerggin

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13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 9:02:16 PM

They cost twice the CP, too, though--because they don't have e.g. tonnage bonuses to defense modules like battleships, you're getting less tonnage per CP, and therefore less tonnage per fleet.

Although I suppose defenses not being shared between ships is a factor in favor of larger ships in non-glass cannon situations.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 9:08:25 PM

They do however get a lot of HP especially with the right improvements and defenses.

But we might be comparing the effectiveness of the American M4 Sherman vs the German Tiger I here.

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Evil4Zerggin

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Evil4Zerggin

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13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 9:26:25 PM

I guess they have an advantage since they direct all their attacks against the same target, it's easier for them to penetrate the defenses of a single enemy ship.

In fact, you might be right even in late-game. A 20-destroyer fleet can get +200% defenses from fleet defense module stacking, so each has 3 defense in units of destroyers with zero bonuses (DZBs).

5 Dreadnoughts can only get a +50% bonus from fleet defense module stacking, but each dreadnought can mount (approximately) 4 times as many defense modules, so each has 6 defense in DZBs , which is twice as much. So unless the Destroyers can concentrate fire, the dreadnoughts could still come out on top.

Battleships have -20% defense weight, so that means x1.25 defense modules per tonnage. 10 Battleships can get a +100% bonus from fleet defense module stacking, and each carries about 2.5x as many defense modules as a destroyer, for 5 defense in DZBs.

If it is true that a flak module can only intercept at most one missile per turn regardless of interception accuracy, the larger ships might come out further on top. Admirals will help the larger ships more than the smaller ships too. On the other hand, if I'm wrong about defenses being powerful, and late-game comes down to glass cannons, dreadnoughts will surely lose.

Of course, the Destroyers have the advantage of zipping around the galaxy at 50+ speed in late game...

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zetal911

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zetal911

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13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 9:57:51 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
So if i had to vote, it would either be leave the dreads how they currently are or make them into true powerhouses with 1000 tonnage but costing 400 dust a turn.

Is that what we're arguing about...? I must misunderstand the situation. Personally, I don't mind the current Dreadnaught tonnages that much (They take up a LOT of CP though...) but I'd prefer they just APPEAR larger in combat.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 9:58:58 PM

We can argue over whatever we please, but yes that's the gist of it.

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Kesat

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Kesat

Ten

13 years ago

Jul 8, 2012, 1:03:28 AM

Igncom1 wrote:
Modern era ships are not like the wooden ones of old, improvements in engine technology allowed ships to massively grow in size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_ships

Ok. And the point is...? I don't see your link to the age of sails. I'd guess the Endless Space ship classes are just inspired by todays naval classification (which traces back to the age of sails), as most Sci-Fi games/films are using these. Actually the dreadnought class was introduced in modern era (first one was HMS Dreadnought, 1906) which replaced the older ship of the line. But maybe i just miss something - in that case, please enlighten me

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 8, 2012, 1:09:57 AM

Differences in ships size, technology at that time meant that most western ships could only get to a certain size, witch then exploded with steam power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Sail

and possibly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_the_line

are better examples.

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Kesat

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Kesat

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13 years ago

Jul 8, 2012, 1:35:18 AM

Igncom1 wrote:
Differences in ships size, technology at that time meant that most western ships could only get to a certain size, witch then exploded with steam power.

Damn it. I still don't get the link between Age of Sail and Endless Space vs. todays naval classification and sizes. Why do you think the age of sails magnitude fits better compared to todays naval classes? We are talking about galactic empires who terraforming planets - i don't think these have problems building a dreadnought 3x the size of a destroyer... despite the fact, that it's not very cost efficient (but hey. more pew-pew! lol)

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 8, 2012, 1:41:54 AM

Because we are not dealing with Water and air in endless space, the vacuum is the same for all and thus physics would theoretically limit how you would build ships.

Plus ships fight in broadside actions unlike modern fleet who can fight beyond their own sight range.

But i will admit i kinda gave up with the point a while back, although air affecting how modern fleets fight compared to how age of sail fleets fought (almost ignoring it) is a point.

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Evil4Zerggin

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Evil4Zerggin

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13 years ago

Jul 8, 2012, 2:01:00 AM

The range of Endless Space (and most science fantasy) battles are more similar to Age of Sail than to the World Wars (where battles were often fought at the limits of visual range, or even beyond).

Summary of ship tonnages:

Age of Sail, Royal Navy rating system ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_system_of_the_Royal_Navy ):

1st-rate ship of the line: 100-120 guns, ~2500 tons burthen

2nd-rate ship of the line: 90-98 guns, ~2200 tons burthen

3rd-rate ship of the line: 64-80 guns, ~1750 tons burthen

4th-rate ship of the line or cruiser: 52-60 guns, ~1000 tons burthen

5th-rate frigate: 32-44 guns, ~700 tons burthen?

6th-rate frigate: 28 guns, ~500 tons burthen

6th-rate post ship: 20-24 guns, ~400 tons burthen

Unrated sloop-of-war: 16-18 guns, ~380 tons burthen

Unrated gun-brig, cutter, or schooner: 4-14 guns, < 220 tons burthen

So the ratios are closer to Endless Space as it stands than other eras.

World War II:

Destroyer: ~2000 tons

Light Cruiser: ~6000 tons

Heavy Cruiser: 10000-15000 tons

Battlecruiser/Battleship: 20000-70000 tons

Historical note ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreadnought ): "Dreadnought" was never a historical class of ship--all ships called "dreadnoughts" were battleships in terms of class. The term comes from HMS Dreadnought, which revolutionized battleship warfare by mounting an "all-big-gun" configuration that gave it unprecedented range, firepower, and ease of targeting. The original Dreadnought displaced about 20000 tons and mounted 12-inch guns. It was launched in 1906, before World War I. The term "dreadnought" fell out of current use after World War I, since most older ships were scrapped. The largest battleships, which were built during World War II until they were eclipsed by aircraft carriers, displaced 40000 to 70000 tons and mounted 15- to 18- inch guns.

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jdan007

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jdan007

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13 years ago

Jul 9, 2012, 5:24:56 PM

I would really love to see a lot more ship types in general both larger and smaller and larger fleet sizes possible, late game it gets a little micromanagey to have hundreds of tiny fleets duking it out everywhere and clicking through all the battles, it would be nice let's say if you invade the guy's home system that the ensuing battle is a very large one, and for those Massive battles it makes sense to build something death-star sized or EVE titan sized ships to provide shield coverage and screens for your other vessels and to engage the enemies potentially very large ships as well.

It's also frustrating that once you research dreadnoughts, you really have nowhere else to go vs. when my race gets so advanced and has so many systems, why can't I keep building UP, especially for a faction like the Pilgrims, if I want to pull off a massive migration late game, let me build some truly enormous ships to do it, after all that's postulating moving billions of people. It should just take a tremendous amount of production to do it. + as always more art and more content!!!!

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 6, 2012, 11:04:00 AM

I would imagine fighters having their own combat mode similar to how WW2 carriers attacked each other, the fighters/bombers and drones would attack in waves swarming the opposing fleet in order to weaken them before the actual fleet to fleet combat begins.

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fourteenfour

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fourteenfour

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13 years ago

Jul 5, 2012, 11:56:31 AM

Eve gets a bit silly with ship sizes and the scale difference would be in the cinematic combat we have that ships would overwhelm the view if not block most of the action

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Mavcu

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Mavcu

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13 years ago

Jul 5, 2012, 4:08:14 PM

Shivetya wrote:
Eve gets a bit silly with ship sizes and the scale difference would be in the cinematic combat we have that ships would overwhelm the view if not block most of the action

Yes of course, Eve is a bit too extreme.

Still, having more differences would not be that bad, we don't have to add bigger ships but I would really love to see small fighters.

Gameplayish we could make them like 1 Unit = 5 Fighters (around that) plus they would make the cinematic combat much more interesting or at least make them look better.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 5, 2012, 4:57:25 PM

Unfortunately i have been converted by the Anti-fighter group and thus i am unable to support any post suggesting fighters.

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Mavcu

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Mavcu

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13 years ago

Jul 5, 2012, 7:52:40 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
Unfortunately i have been converted by the Anti-fighter group and thus i am unable to support any post suggesting fighters.

Well, it was just an instance, we could use like fighters, we don't have to obviously.

But I'd like to hear what you think of the actual idea of the thread, somehow no one actually responses to that. :-(

SIZES, as all the ships have pretty much the same size or they just don't differ enough, of course the ships in the late game (the 6th type) is like 2x or perhaps 3x larger than the smallest ship (1st or 2nd type)

But that's not really the difference I'd like to see in a space game with huge ships, like making the last ship types perhaps a bit bigger would make all the difference to me, but what do you think about that? I'd really love to hear that.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 5, 2012, 8:00:49 PM

With that i agree, the ships are not much bigger in terms of room and most of their stats.

But what you must consider is that endless space kinda uses the age of sail for its ships, and those vessels were never much bigger then cruisers of today.

But if i were up to it, i would make all of the ships have a little more room: Small:150 Medium:350 and large:650 giving medium ships the best cost efficiency, small ships the best cost and large ships the most efficiency.

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MODNosferatiel

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"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

13 years ago

Jul 5, 2012, 11:11:36 PM

Edited the title.

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zetal911

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zetal911

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13 years ago

Jul 6, 2012, 6:02:55 AM

I must have missed the anti-fighter argument. Could someone point me to it? I'm pro-fighter at the moment, but I haven't read any info on it.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 6, 2012, 9:24:48 AM

/#/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11169-discussion-carriers-motherships-and-missiles

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