While not necessarily broken, perhaps points gained should be altered for custom factions built with Sower affinity when selecting the Black Thumb trait.

To a non-Sower they are very impacting, particularly early game.

But for Sower's it is not nearly as impacting of their game nor their early game.



So in my opinion, perhaps the points should be altered if the base affinity is or is changed to Sower.



Thoughts? (climbs into flame retardant clothing in anticipation of feedback from Monty Hall types)

Thera are many funny or exploitable or horrible trait combinations. For example if you take Sower affinity and Tolerant, your home planet gets -50% or -25% FIDS malus because you don't have the technology to colonise tundra yet. With other affinities there is no such downside (or extra 10 point cost) to take Tolerant. But I agree automatic -15 points others don't have access to is very nice.



All in all it would make sense to have affinity-spesific prices to _everything_, but there is a way around the huge trouble: different base point pool. Right now Sowers (and Pilgrims and Amoeba?) get 5 points less to use from the start. Thats 5 points off the advantage. One could also argue for example that Slow Travelers 1 impacts Amoeba affinity less than others, because they know where to go. It's a hindrance only in the early game anyways. Dropping the Sowers base point pool would solve the Black Thumbs problem (if it is a problem, as in unfair). And if the affinities get balanced without doing either, it's fine as well. Many traits are "sure picks" for min-maxers. That's the way it works.



The unfairness factor, ask someone playing more multiplayer?

Changed title to make it into a discussion.

I agree. Right now there are 2 game breaking combinations for custom factions. First: trade combo (merchants, blockade breaker + optional Amoeba Affinity) - resulting in enormous advantage of +60 science and dust from nowhere at the beginning of the game. Second is Sowers + black thumbs - free 30 points to spend. Possibly mix it with trade combo - unstoppable force.

First of all Amoeba and Sower affinity costs you extra 5 points as u get only 60 to spend. Second sowers still get half the penalty from black thumbs as they still produce half the food.



Both are not an unstopable force. I prove that to you in any Multiplayer game.

amazingPhil wrote:
First of all Amoeba and Sower affinity costs you extra 5 points as u get only 60 to spend. Second sowers still get half the penalty from black thumbs as they still produce half the food.



Both are not an unstopable force. I prove that to you in any Multiplayer game.

Sower affinity, black thumbs ---, merchants +++, blockade breaker and militarists/builders = 3000 strong fleet on the 30 turn, while most of the players are only beginning to build military. No exceptions in my matches. Population (food) is not really needed in this type of gameplay as industry advantages are much much more than any bonuses you can get from high pop. Science and dust are not needed either, you just steal them from trade.

There is merchants+++ ? Most people are playing Sophons due to the strength of their abbility anyway. Would you say it's broken due to Sowers/Black Thumbs or due to Merchants++ and Blockade Breakers?



But overall I agree that some traits and combinations are simply too good (but it's not sower affinity with black thumbs). The system or the points are not balanced yet. It should be more like two categories of traits with more limited points. The problem I mostly see is that everybody takes blockade breakers, merchants++ and traders++ and combine it with builders or growth plan. Then you have two massive boosts and that makes you really strong from the beginning on.

My mistake about +++ Sowers/thumbs combo is really good for rush strategy, you can try it.



Yes, I agree about trade exploit. One of the solutions for the problem would be overhaul of blockade breaker ability. Right now it's not "blockade breaker", but "steal" ability. Opposite side of the trade is not getting anything from the supposed illegal exchange.

That might be true and I'd say it is even a valid race in mid to late game. But Horatio, Sophons and Amoeba are at least comparable and therefor I don't think this needs to be fixed.



I kinda think rushing is the worst option in Multiplayer, though. To rush you have to research some decent combat techs (destroyer, 1st fleet upgrade and better rockets or laser) very early. This puts you behind in FIDS and ultimately in research. It's easy to counter that just by being able to build more ships and to do the combat tech research very fast after some turns. In fast games a 3000 MP fleet on turn 30 is not that impressive. I can't say very much to normal mode as I dislike this mode in multiplayer.



If you really wanna rush I think the overall Hissho traits are more your thing as you have some gain out of invasion and space combat.



Btw I think there are strong traits not yet used, also. To find really good combinations apart from the no brainers, one have to try around a little bit. And another important thing many people forget about, are the race specific techs. Some of them are really strong as well.

I actually did sowers with black thumbs once and ill never do it again. While i had no problem with industry, growing my pop was terrible therefore science and dust was too. Eventually i overcame it, but unless you are rushing like was mentioned before all it does is cripple your growth.

I have to admit it was mostly from a rush perspective I used it. But I will accept that there are other combinations. My point was only that it is not as much of a hit for them as someone else perhaps and so maybe not be worth as many points.

Again it is why I asked for more perspective. Thanks everyone for contributing.