[Discussion] Please revamp the battle system(Xpost/cleanup)++ - Endless Space

[Discussion] Please revamp the battle system(Xpost/cleanup)++

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glurg

Old Timer

glurg

Old Timer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 5:14:25 AM

I can't agree more with OP. The combat system has been my least favorite part of this game...

In all honesty, I wish they would trash their current combat system and instead adopt something like the Total War series has, with combat being similar to that of Sins of a Solar Empire. I think that would be a lot more engaging and less repetitive. That would also make a valid use for fighters/bombers/carriers.

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Wyseman76

Newcomer

Wyseman76

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 5:59:45 AM

I stated before that the game is great overall, but I have to agree even after 11 hours of gameplay at it's current state the combat does feel a little flat. I don't expect nor seek a complete revamping of the system as a few small additions and alterations could bring a bit of depth to the current concept.

More cards could be helpful but I doubt it, as it really still leaves only the rock paper scissors that we have now. And with that the best option in any fight for me has been purely having more guns or more powerful guns to the fight. I would like to see something that helps to reinforce a need for diversity in ship design and fleet composition. My current campaign I am now pushing hard on the AI with pure brute force and no fleet diversity, all maximum brutal force ship design, balancing only a single damage and defensive tech type. So far this has been working to well in my opinion.

I don't have any answers to the issue at hand but I feel that something needs to be altered to give us a reason to really create quality fleets and not zerg hordes.

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MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

Truth is a chameleon. Herbert

MODVieuxChat

Chameleon

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 6:52:16 AM

glurg wrote:
I can't agree more with OP. The combat system has been my least favorite part of this game...

In all honesty, I wish they would trash their current combat system and instead adopt something like the Total War series has, with combat being similar to that of Sins of a Solar Empire. I think that would be a lot more engaging and less repetitive. That would also make a valid use for fighters/bombers/carriers.

Please. No real time battles. No battles where I need to be clickyclickyclickyclickyclicky (even SoeSE that tries to avoid that... didn't avoid that. A clcicky player will have such an edge in battle -__-). Mind over reflexes please.

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Gendou

Old Timer

What actually transpires beneath the veil of an event horizon? Decent people shouldn't think too much about that.

Gendou

Old Timer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 7:28:24 AM

VieuxChat wrote:
Please. No real time battles.

This. The current system is... okay.

I would much prefer a turn-based system like Master of Orion 2, but it seems like every developer since MOO3 wants 3D, pseudo-'real time' battles.

You can make the system 3D and still allow for amazingly flexible turn-based combat. I wish someone would do that in a space 4X game. I'm tired of real-time combat.

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PolytheistGoat

Newcomer

PolytheistGoat

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 7:37:38 AM

To Real-Time fans: You have most every game developed in the last decade or so. Please, please, please let people who loathe twenty-hour clickslogs optimizing battle formations that are as fun as sorting papers at the office till have the honor of the current combat system. There are plenty of great combat-focused games out there; give Gratuitous Space Battles a try. Speaking personally, it is far too similar to work in the real world for my tastes, and this system was a breath of fresh air. Changing the combat system at this point would be a huge effort, and in my opinion time that could be better spent adding more things to do and to see, cleaning, testing, and balancing, and otherwise making the game even more fun. If the final version has real-time combat, I would ask that the Devs allow us to keep this Alpha version, perhaps with final race selection, as is.

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Kamshin

Newcomer

Kamshin

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 9:04:17 AM

Well, I am a huge fan of tactical combat, real-time or turn based, but I agree that it would be inconsistent with the design of this particular game. What I think the current system lacks is "intensity", and slightly tighter fleet control.

On intensity: right now, I feel battles are a bit dull. I really only select manual resolution to be able to pick the cards. I think it would only be a matter of choosing better camera angles, more dramatic visual effects for card abilities, and perhaps a more "epic" music theme (think Homeworld 2 but consistent with the game's ambient music). That would go a long way to providing the adrenaline fix I expect from tactical combat.

As for control: again, it would not take much. I am thinking: a couple of (non-customizable) battle formation that would not provide any bonus but instead allow you to chose how the damage you take is spread. Small, expendable ships first or large, more tanky, ships first, for example. I think it would really synergize well with the ability to design ships. And perhaps heroes could have abilities allowing to bypass that and target high value ships regardless of formation... but I digress.

Anyway, I guess my point is that without changing the core of the current system I believe there is a way of making it feel less like a roll of the dice (regardless of whether or not that how combat is actually resolved by the game)

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PolytheistGoat

Newcomer

PolytheistGoat

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 9:06:22 AM

A little less serious, but you don't think the current battle music is fantastic..? As soon as I heard it, I wanted to extract it from the .fsb files so I could listen to it while I worked.

What would you consider epic music? (I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for people to add music via mod or somesuch)

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Eiensakura

Newcomer

Eiensakura

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 1:43:35 PM

Well, even if they don't do a Total War style RTS battle, at least give us more options on fleet formation, weapon placement on ships (now i'm literally staring at ammo being fired off random sides of the ship instead of proper weapon systems), and more ship design variety, it's a bit dull to see the same Dreadnought plowing through the enemies -others become quite obsolete after getting one-, albeit with different weapon mods, had 3 Dreadnoughts of the Imperator (Kinetic weapons), Empress (Missile heavy planetary siege variant) and the Princeps (Commander class, with repair and movement mod, laser heavy).

one more, the destruction of enemy ships seems too shiny, kinetic and warheads should at most blow a ship into bits and chunks, unless they hit a critical spot like a fusion reactor or an ammo storage port, which still should leave some form of battlefield debris.

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Eiensakura

Newcomer

Eiensakura

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 2:00:06 PM

Rating this up,

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Kruos

Old Craver

Kruos

Old Craver

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 2:01:11 PM

Concerning the rework suggestion : sorry but I don't at all agree with the OP, I think the combat system in its current shape is quite innovative and elegant, and has a huge potential.

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Kruos

Old Craver

Kruos

Old Craver

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 2:17:27 PM

Meru wrote:
Innovative: to invent or begin to apply (methods, ideas, etc)

this RPS system is in no way innovative. nor is it elegant, though that one is a matter of opinion. to say it is innovative is to declare your lack of interest/knowledge in the 4x genre.

It is your limited way of seeing things. From my point of vue, such statement is not a proof of open minded intelligence.

To return to the subject, the current battle system is quite innovative, and I think that it is also a quite elegant one. It allows the dev team to focus on strategic aspects of the game, and not waste time on coding a tactical IA (which should not be very good in fact).

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halflotus

Newcomer

halflotus

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 3:18:53 PM

I think the current combat model has a lot of potential. Targeting would be a nice addition, as suggested by the OP.

The OP's two main suggestions seem to be asking for more cosmetic (camera adjustment) and more transparent (showing weapon/defense values more dynamically) improvements.

The tactics model is really cool imo, once they flesh it out.

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Terror

Newcomer

Terror

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 3:40:00 PM

Agreed, current model has potential, but is too bland to leave alone as it is, not sure how else I can stress that last phrase without a wall of text, but it seriously is a bit too uncontrollable/passive right now. The solution may still be a different model altogether, but what is more certain is that it will be a terrible move to leave the current system be.

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quastebec

Newcomer

quastebec

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 3:48:13 PM

Terror has it right.

In the playthrou i did, where i was around turn 250 at the end when my horatio enemy did an economic victory (i have no idea how he managed that ... ) just before i could finaly crush him completely with my fleet, half of the game i did space battle (approximatly).

And face it: Space battle right now is not really fun. The first 50 times perhaps, its nice to watch. but then one does recognice that he has very very little influence over the outcome and the "strategic" discisions go not further than dicide if i want to have kinetic - laser - rocket ships, which i can easily decide because i can allways see the designs of the AI ...

in its current state i can imagine multiplayer matches to be a dust focused "refit-fest" where the player who is in defense, and can, because he has his fleets on his planet, refit them as he sees the incoming fleets strategy before they reach him.

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paradiddle

Musician

paradiddle

Musician

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 3:52:53 PM

I think having a VATs like system (from Fallout) would make the combat a little more interesting while not changing the turn based nature. You could target ship engines, leaving enemy dead in the water. Target their weapons turrets to disable their offensive cababilities. Blow up life support and watch as crew eject out escape pods.

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Xenos

Newcomer

Xenos

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 4:07:37 PM

Please note that a MoOII-like combat system would work fine only for small fleets. Late in a MoOII campaign it became a boring stellar-converter slug match. So far the fleets in ES seem pretty small, but if the number of ships will be increased in the final release the actual system would be much more practical than a turn-based direct-control one. A Sins-like system has the potential to be amazing, but still, that game is basically a RTS built around space combat, so it seems to much to expect something similar from a proper 4X.

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Eiensakura

Newcomer

Eiensakura

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 4:12:28 PM

Would like that if orbiting allied fleets be able to warp in and act as reinforcements to your battles, makes things much richer, makes no sense if they'd just stood by there watching your fleet getting blasted apart. Makes having garrison fleet a lil more viable too

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halflotus

Newcomer

halflotus

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 4:24:02 PM

Meru wrote:
My main desire is to see more depth in the combat system

Agreed. Maybe some type of targeting, maybe some type of overall tactic like fleet formation which affects the entire battle.

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dlcooper

Newcomer

dlcooper

Newcomer

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 4:31:30 PM

I don't have a lot of experience with strategy games and don't have a lot to compare this to, but what about a modified version of the card system. What about instead of both sides playing the cards at the same time, one side or the other would go first in each phase and the other side would have the opportunity to play a card in response to the first one. That could add some strategy into the card playing aspect of it.

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Merku

Lord

Merku

Lord

13 years ago

May 5, 2012, 4:52:44 PM

paradiddle wrote:
I think having a VATs like system (from Fallout) would make the combat a little more interesting while not changing the turn based nature. You could target ship engines, leaving enemy dead in the water. Target their weapons turrets to disable their offensive cababilities. Blow up life support and watch as crew eject out escape pods.

This is a great idea for a game of this nature. You could have the cards to add tactical elements to the overall fleet strength and use this vats-like system to have more control over the nature of the battle. I'd be willing to bet that it is a bit too late in the development cycle to add this, though.

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