SyberSmoke wrote:
This discussion has been some what amusing to read since it is all about opinion. Simply put the game is in alpha and to change the battle system from a cinematic one influenced by cards, to anything else would require allot of work. Camera control, player control over ship movement, target designation, behaviors, AI...it would be many many months of work. Yeah...most developers would look at you flatly and say "HAHAHA...fat chance". This is not to say you do not have a valid opinion...but with a release time frame of say the end of the summer, it is not going to happen in this reality.



Personally this game is interesting to me because I am tired of micromanaging every little thing. I have been playing Sin's a bit and Sword of the Stars 2, and really I am tired of having to think faster then a computer. To manage angles, to select the right targets, blah blah blah cookie cutter stuff. Things have not changed for almost 20 years. Heck I avidly played Pax Imperia, the grand daddy of many of these games.



So lets manage the empire...let the admirals manage the fighting for this one. And as always, if you not into it then that is fine. Go play something else...

Naturally it's going to be all about opinion since there really is no way to link facts to this debate.

Would it be a far-fetched dream if the space combat was real-time ala Total War style?

sins isn't a 4x game it is RTS. its hard to call SotS a 4x game with the lack of management but it is nontheless, and SotS combat system is the only one in over a decade that actually engages the player, but it has shortcomings in ship customization, galaxy management(although it has more ship customization than endless space~)



It can remain a cinematic battle system, with tweaks to add depth, alternatively it could in that timeframe of a summer release be revamped completely. but the cinematic battle system should be built upon if that is what it is to be, not copy-pasted from GC2.



Edit: While you cant link facts in something that is opinion based, it is a fact that every space based 4x game released since mooii(except Space Empires,maybe IG2) has used what can be quantified as a system with less depth.



it was said "if you want a different experience there are games for that" the thing is, there are not. If you want an experience like this game currently offers there /are/ games for that.

Would be nice if we can preset Fleet Tactics too

Just read

The team is made of video game veterans, as the team members have worked at key developers positions on a lot of pretty well known franchises such as Battlefield, F1 Racing Championship, Ghost Recon, Call of Juarez, R.U.S.E and Might & Magic.



the R.U.S.E bit atleast explains the "tactics" cards~



@Eiensakura there is plenty that can be done even with the system in place. stealing targeting commands from GSB would be an adequate start. or simply in-battle targeting assignments.



So this is your first foray as a group into 4x, Galciv 2 was released in 2006, I don't think anyone will be talking about it in 2016, atleast not with reverance. that is just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, but I think you have a game that can be remembered for ages in the 4x community, or one that will be "just another 4x game"

Depending on your viewpoint and by the meaning of 4X (explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate) Sins does fit. You explore, You expand to new planets and even systems on larger maps, you exploit new worlds and research, and you exterminate the other players. And while it does have RTS elements it could be argued that it is both unlike a more typical RTS.



There is no right way to make a 4X title...and they all have their own interpretation of the explore, expand, exploit, and exterminate concept. So there is allot of room for this, for SotS 2, Legend of Pegasus (Kalypso Media), and Sins: Rebellion. I am pretty sure people of all types will find what they desire.



As for this game, I bet it will get tuned to fit the needs of those that are looking to play it. Just the way it works in game development. Well that or you alienate all the people that bought it and you next game crashes horribly.

definition of labels definitely comes into play, if you wanted to use it loosely enough could you not go as far as to say Starcraft/Warcraft are 4x games? I wouldn't, but you could.

Probably not, just because those do fit well and cleanly into the RTS genre. More over that 4X really has a clear progression and expansion where as an RTS has more of a limited scope. Sins is more of a crossover genre, it is both 4X and RTS. And really it was not the first, Pax Imperia for the Mac OS could be played both in a real time mode and as a turn based game. Ahead of its time...but very unappreciated thanks to its sequel.

I can't agree more with OP. The combat system has been my least favorite part of this game...

In all honesty, I wish they would trash their current combat system and instead adopt something like the Total War series has, with combat being similar to that of Sins of a Solar Empire. I think that would be a lot more engaging and less repetitive. That would also make a valid use for fighters/bombers/carriers.

I stated before that the game is great overall, but I have to agree even after 11 hours of gameplay at it's current state the combat does feel a little flat. I don't expect nor seek a complete revamping of the system as a few small additions and alterations could bring a bit of depth to the current concept.



More cards could be helpful but I doubt it, as it really still leaves only the rock paper scissors that we have now. And with that the best option in any fight for me has been purely having more guns or more powerful guns to the fight. I would like to see something that helps to reinforce a need for diversity in ship design and fleet composition. My current campaign I am now pushing hard on the AI with pure brute force and no fleet diversity, all maximum brutal force ship design, balancing only a single damage and defensive tech type. So far this has been working to well in my opinion.



I don't have any answers to the issue at hand but I feel that something needs to be altered to give us a reason to really create quality fleets and not zerg hordes.

glurg wrote:
I can't agree more with OP. The combat system has been my least favorite part of this game...

In all honesty, I wish they would trash their current combat system and instead adopt something like the Total War series has, with combat being similar to that of Sins of a Solar Empire. I think that would be a lot more engaging and less repetitive. That would also make a valid use for fighters/bombers/carriers.

Please. No real time battles. No battles where I need to be clickyclickyclickyclickyclicky (even SoeSE that tries to avoid that... didn't avoid that. A clcicky player will have such an edge in battle -__-). Mind over reflexes please.

VieuxChat wrote:
Please. No real time battles.

This. The current system is... okay.

I would much prefer a turn-based system like Master of Orion 2, but it seems like every developer since MOO3 wants 3D, pseudo-'real time' battles.

You can make the system 3D and still allow for amazingly flexible turn-based combat. I wish someone would do that in a space 4X game. I'm tired of real-time combat.

To Real-Time fans: You have most every game developed in the last decade or so. Please, please, please let people who loathe twenty-hour clickslogs optimizing battle formations that are as fun as sorting papers at the office till have the honor of the current combat system. There are plenty of great combat-focused games out there; give Gratuitous Space Battles a try. Speaking personally, it is far too similar to work in the real world for my tastes, and this system was a breath of fresh air. Changing the combat system at this point would be a huge effort, and in my opinion time that could be better spent adding more things to do and to see, cleaning, testing, and balancing, and otherwise making the game even more fun. If the final version has real-time combat, I would ask that the Devs allow us to keep this Alpha version, perhaps with final race selection, as is.

Well, I am a huge fan of tactical combat, real-time or turn based, but I agree that it would be inconsistent with the design of this particular game. What I think the current system lacks is "intensity", and slightly tighter fleet control.



On intensity: right now, I feel battles are a bit dull. I really only select manual resolution to be able to pick the cards. I think it would only be a matter of choosing better camera angles, more dramatic visual effects for card abilities, and perhaps a more "epic" music theme (think Homeworld 2 but consistent with the game's ambient music). That would go a long way to providing the adrenaline fix I expect from tactical combat.



As for control: again, it would not take much. I am thinking: a couple of (non-customizable) battle formation that would not provide any bonus but instead allow you to chose how the damage you take is spread. Small, expendable ships first or large, more tanky, ships first, for example. I think it would really synergize well with the ability to design ships. And perhaps heroes could have abilities allowing to bypass that and target high value ships regardless of formation... but I digress.



Anyway, I guess my point is that without changing the core of the current system I believe there is a way of making it feel less like a roll of the dice (regardless of whether or not that how combat is actually resolved by the game)

A little less serious, but you don't think the current battle music is fantastic..? As soon as I heard it, I wanted to extract it from the .fsb files so I could listen to it while I worked. What would you consider epic music? (I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard for people to add music via mod or somesuch)

Well, even if they don't do a Total War style RTS battle, at least give us more options on fleet formation, weapon placement on ships (now i'm literally staring at ammo being fired off random sides of the ship instead of proper weapon systems), and more ship design variety, it's a bit dull to see the same Dreadnought plowing through the enemies -others become quite obsolete after getting one-, albeit with different weapon mods, had 3 Dreadnoughts of the Imperator (Kinetic weapons), Empress (Missile heavy planetary siege variant) and the Princeps (Commander class, with repair and movement mod, laser heavy).



one more, the destruction of enemy ships seems too shiny, kinetic and warheads should at most blow a ship into bits and chunks, unless they hit a critical spot like a fusion reactor or an ammo storage port, which still should leave some form of battlefield debris.

Gendou wrote:
This. The current system is... okay.

I would much prefer a turn-based system like Master of Orion 2, but it seems like every developer since MOO3 wants 3D, pseudo-'real time' battles.

You can make the system 3D and still allow for amazingly flexible turn-based combat. I wish someone would do that in a space 4X game. I'm tired of real-time combat.

+1 for turn based .



and yes, real time fans have had the field for well over a decade, we haven't seen but one or two fully turn based 4x games in that time.



Yes, you can make the current system less flat/more intense. yes that would be fine. front-mid-back formations taken from the lesser known Infinite Space(fantastic game btw), or some fantasy rpg games. plenty of options, in whatever direction. but as it stands its RNG RPS, why can't I make a flat out tank why can't they fly in formation to block incoming shots /shrug.

Weapon hardpoints seem like they'd be easy, but also awkward to work in considering fleets ever only fight in broadsides, Highly Detailed Battle damage would be a luxury item but a really nice touch, death animations are definitely overboard & seem to come at random times? "pew pew pew pew" "guns stop" "..." "explode", going to refer to highly detailed battle damage as HDBD from here, back to that point HDBD would be amazing to see if the cinematic mode is kept(and refined) shots piercing into/through ship, missiles leaving large rips in the hull, beams gradually heating up the hull/piercing through/melting it away, also beams need to be BEAMS not pulses, this HDBD also wouldn't just be the same recurring pre-determined HDBD set up/tie in the accuracy/hitscan algorithm & have it occur "naturally"



Edit: please take the time to Rate this thread, two people rated it a 1 star which is fine thats their opinion. but I know there are other people who want to rate this higher.

Rating this up,

Concerning the rework suggestion : sorry but I don't at all agree with the OP, I think the combat system in its current shape is quite innovative and elegant, and has a huge potential.