I haven't been playing all that long yet, but so far I like this combat system. To me, it lets you guide the battle some without requiring you to put in half an hour (or more) to win a single fight. I think that would get tedious fast considering the amount of battles that can happen rapidly after each other. I like that it doesn't take away from the general game as a real combat system would, imho, shift the balance of the game dramatically.



I do feel there is some merit in what is said above about the actual ship building, but I think I'm going to need to play a bit longer to really get a grip on the concept. I just wanted to chime in that I like the current system and don't feel like the game needs an elaborate real combat system.

I will chime in to add that I like the current system, it is innovative and a perfect upgrade from the "two units fight one wins" style of Civ.



That being said, I have two points. First, the auto system needs to be improved. It seems that I get consistently worse results using auto than using manual. Second, there needs to be some more variety to the cards, in my opinion. Not enough to make it crazy, but a little. Like rock-paper-scissors-fire maybe did anyone else cheat like that when you were young?

Meru wrote:
http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2666017 original post





1) In short, I think the battle system is a huge mistake. MoO II did it overwhelmingly right, Galciv2 did it overwhelmingly wrong & that is the model with which you are building upon.

>Realtime is fine, Sword of the stars did it "well"(many improvements could be made but it is a fine start to a real time system, overwhelmingly better than the Galciv2 model)

>Turn based /works/ there isn't a single 4x "successor" in existence that has stuck to the turn based battle system, Why? it is probably the main thing that keeps me going back to MoOII over newer 4x games.

>Cinematics are great, but they only go so far: Your ship designs are beautiful & exciting to watch but player interaction is the main selling point of a "game" Gratuitous space battles unfortunately only forwarded the Galciv 2 model, which makes for a pretty game but ultimately low playability, I purchased GSB & all its expansions, but ultimately only ended up putting 14 hours into the game before I had experienced all it had to offer, to me at least. I guess that model works but I don't think anyone will be talking about GSB a decade from now, at least I hope not.

>Ships appear to have more options("subsystems" or "accessories") than in galciv 2, but the Rock-Paper-Scissors battle system limits you to a shallow experience imo. (Armor-Shields-Flak/Short-Medium-Long)

I totally agree. The superior battle system of MoOII was reached no more in any 4x game. I can imagine it's a litte late in development for totally change the battle system of ES but it would be worth it (IMHO).

I like the current combat system, more cards might be nice, but that's really all I can see, and there's probably many I've just not come across yet so even that's just speculation as I've only played a little so far.

But I think to go for a 'detailed, micro focused space combat' would actually detract from the game, for me at least

The combat in this game is very boring, it actually spoils the rest of the game. I love 4x games, I like when you can just use your imagination to make up if you're in control of an evil imperial empire, or some benevolent federation.



A 4x game that turns into Homeworld2 during fleet fights, that would be true nirvana.

The trouble with more detailed fights is that they get really boring. The Total War games are a great example of this. The battles are fun at first, but after a while you end fighting essentially the same battles with the same units over and over again. Often they're very easy, but can't be skipped because the auto-resolve punishes you insanely harshly. If anything, MOO was even worse. Early fights were boring because you just had one or two ships and no actual choice of what to do, while later you were forced to waste far too much time moving a ton of ships individually over and over again.



I think the current system is a great compromise between being forced to constantly micro-manage repetitive fights, and simply going with an entirely hands-off spreadsheet driven system like Civ or GalCiv. It could certainly use a fair bit of tweaking, but I think the principle is sound.

God, barf no, please, PLEASE don't listen to the people who're whingeing about MOO2 combat. Seriously, if I wanted to nudge each of my 147 ships around a map individually while managing firing arcs and sheild facing then I'd boot up MOO2 and get bored after the second fight. I maintain that any problems with the current system feeling shallow can be addressed by tweaking the cards players are presented with and doing more to differentiate the effects of said cards visually (like changing the way the ships move around). Kludging the bad old infinitely long grognardily-slogtastic system from MOO2 into ES is almost the exact opposite thing to do.

I would love some alterations to combat, but I do think the card system is where they should be implemented. There's room for a lot of complexity there in terms of certain cards being restricted to combat ranges/responses to enemy action/certain races or heroes/certain fleet compositions/certain ship types or having the card system expanded so that more than 3 cards can be chosen or some cards can be chosen prior to battle and some during or whatever.



I'd much rather see a lot of expanded tactical options there than a major overhaul, I like the basic system.

>I see on a thread down this page addressing the lack of "interdiction" again, MoOII allowed you to intercept ships mid-journey, if your not going to allow that then they have to at least be stopped by a fleet at a planet or chokepoints are meaningless, I experienced this in the short time I've been playing already, had a blockade setup AI just went right past it to my homeworld, no interdiction would also allow for cheese-tastic multiplayer tactics, Battle -> fly back & forth between systems = immunity/repairs.

This specific issue has to be addressed. I find it strange that any fleet can pass through systems occupied by fleets of other factions, moreso if the other faction is hostile AND the faction's fleet has more movement. It should be a diplomatic option to allow fleets to pass through systems that are occupied by other fleets. Of course, if the system is unoccupied, then free reign to the fleet, continue on with your duties. And yes, hit-and-runs would be unbalanced to say the least.



However, the current battle system is something I personally like. While it is beautiful and time-consuming, it can turn the tables, whether by luck or tactics. The manual combat allows players to analyze strong points and weak points of ships during the fight: Are Ships A focused on Kinetics, Beams, or Missiles? Are Ships B vulnerable to Ship C? Does my opponent have a battle card pattern? In my honest opinion: Manual combat helps me develop ships to counter enemy fleets, especially if they have higher military tech, and allows me to successfully defend key points with properly equipped ships and/or a lucky/educated pick on battle cards.

I have to agree completely with this - the combat system feels quite like what Final Fantasy did, in making the player little more than an observer.



Let me recount my personal experiences with the combat: after the first three times of going through, playing "cards" to attack, I found that I was no longer having fun. The cinematics were very pretty and other wonderful things, but felt like I wasn't really playing a game. It was shocking and distressing. From that point on, I've just found it to be more fun just to click "Auto" every time that combat rolled around and get it out of the way.



At least give us some more involvement in the combat. As has been suggested before: targeting, formations, *something* that at least gives a reason to go through the same cinematic repeatedly. There is no replay value to just having a player sit around and watch - we're playing a game, not watching a movie.



Simply put, it might as well have been done with finger puppets or cut it out entirely and it would have made no difference to me since it requires next to no player interaction. And as for uniqueness, anthrax-based ice cream would be pretty unique, but I think we can agree that the taste isn't going to be very good.

ShadowBroker wrote:
This specific issue has to be addressed. I find it strange that any fleet can pass through systems occupied by fleets of other factions, moreso if the other faction is hostile AND the faction's fleet has more movement. It should be a diplomatic option to allow fleets to pass through systems that are occupied by other fleets. Of course, if the system is unoccupied, then free reign to the fleet, continue on with your duties. And yes, hit-and-runs would be unbalanced to say the least.



However, the current battle system is something I personally like. While it is beautiful and time-consuming, it can turn the tables, whether by luck or tactics. The manual combat allows players to analyze strong points and weak points of ships during the fight: Are Ships A focused on Kinetics, Beams, or Missiles? Are Ships B vulnerable to Ship C? Does my opponent have a battle card pattern? In my honest opinion: Manual combat helps me develop ships to counter enemy fleets, especially if they have higher military tech, and allows me to successfully defend key points with properly equipped ships and/or a lucky/educated pick on battle cards.

Doesn't Guard negate that issue now? I'm pretty certain no one can pass through a fleet on Guard.

sins rebellion release got this game shelved for me...might play it again at launch but....idk cuz the combat blows XD

R0AHN wrote:
Let me recount my personal experiences with the combat: after the first three times of going through, playing "cards" to attack, I found that I was no longer having fun. The cinematics were very pretty and other wonderful things, but felt like I wasn't really playing a game. It was shocking and distressing. From that point on, I've just found it to be more fun just to click "Auto" every time that combat rolled around and get it out of the way.

I agree with this. The first few time i also looked at it like "wow". But after a few times, it gets boring fast. Also, the whole card selection process, blocks you view during the "cinematic", and with no way to pause, your rushing it for no good reason.



And to be honest, i always find its more "luck" playing the cards, then any useful. When your attacked by multiple fleets, the AI seems to picks different options each time, even when there fleet competition is the same. In the end, it does NOT feel like strategy, but more like "gambling".



When i first read the game description before buying, it looked like "hey, that has a Magic The Gathering" feeling to it. Where you can influence the battle goes with interrupts, tokens, effects ( been a few years from when i played, so i forget half the terms ).



Plenty of times, i was just getting nervous waiting for the minute, when the first phase starts ( as ships arrive ). At times, i did not even know what ships am i looking at right now, there's or mine ( thanks to some bad camera angles ).



I can understand the need to remove some of the clutter of combat, as it can end up taking a long time ( and normal games when playing on auto combat, can take lots of hours! ). But at the same time, you have:



* Auto: Spend 1.5 minutes ( take rather long to resolve the combat to be honest )

* Semi - Auto: Spend 4 Minutes ( take long to do that report at times, same with the "intro / arrivals" )



And the outcome in general is mostly influenced by your ship design anyway. You see wreckage in the cinematic, and you feel like: I want to hide my poor fleet behind this massive destroyed full, because the enemy is outgunning me. But in reality, you just watch as your fleet gets blown to bits. This is one of the game elements, that just does not match the overall scope of the game. Looks great at first, and that is probably why a lot of people vote for it, but when you start playing more games, it just become a bore with no useful impact.



Points that need work: AI, Battles, Tech Tree ( some things at illogical locations, and not always clear ).

Ohma wrote:
God, barf no, please, PLEASE don't listen to the people who're whingeing about MOO2 combat. Seriously, if I wanted to nudge each of my 147 ships around a map individually while managing firing arcs and sheild facing then I'd boot up MOO2 and get bored after the second fight. I maintain that any problems with the current system feeling shallow can be addressed by tweaking the cards players are presented with and doing more to differentiate the effects of said cards visually (like changing the way the ships move around). Kludging the bad old infinitely long grognardily-slogtastic system from MOO2 into ES is almost the exact opposite thing to do.

I dont see whats the problem in introducing a turn combat phase for the guys who like it, and an "autoresolve button" for the others like u that dont like interactive combat. Even u can choose it at the begining of the game and everybody would be happy

Faulk wrote:
I have yet to see a recently successful game with turn-based combat, ergo it is a thing of the past.

While not a 4x game there is Atlantica Online. But over all I agree with the OP, the current battle system is great but there is much room for improvement that would not require recreating the system, just tweaking it for different battle scenarios/cards.



I would like to also add that I to got bored with the combat relatively quickly. There are some OMG moments when I take out a fleet twice as powerful as mine but those are few and far between. Most of the time missiles and the number of ships that can use them determine the outcome; not the cards played nor the class of ships used. If I make a fleet of 24MP 1st/2nd tier ships and load them down with missiles I will never lose a battle, or rather not without crippling the enemy fleet. It has never failed me, this tactic, and it made the combat so boring for me; it is just a race to top tier missiles then getting the dust output to build tons of ships with them equipped.

The design for combat is slick. Most of winning a fight is done before combats starts with ship design and such. That is as it should be in a 4x game. You can still pull off some upsets by out guessing your opponent. It gives you some control, but it does not take very long to resolve, perfect for an online game where you have to wait for others.



The system does need some love however. Targeting, ship diversity, and card diversity should be addressed. Still, the overall design is very well thought out for what its trying to do. It wont be for everyone, but you should look at what its trying to solve, not what you personally want in the game.

@glurg : necroing sterile debate post is baaaaad.

Since i havent played the game yet dont know how much my opinion matters but anyways here is my thoughts.

I was a great fun of both MOOs and i really liked GalCivs. What i liked in MOO was the turn based combat, style that is my favorite since i mostly play turn based games, and GalCiv was an amazing game that had almost what MOO2 was missing except the combat system (both games sucked badly on ground combat thought :mad

From the video of the combat i ve seen so far the combat system looks nice and more importantly, it looks promising. I dont know if after 20 or 50 battles is boring, but i am sure with some improvements like choosing targets or battle formation or the ability to retreat or a scenario like chasing the enemy the combat can more enjoyable with not much core changes.

It could be possible to move to a combat system similar to what is already in place. The system could be changed to pause at phases, add some more phases, add a lot more cards. Then have cards be attached to the fleet based on what class they are, what weapons and modules they have and what hero is leading. Make it into more of a short card game where your choices have a greater impact on the outcome. I have yet to notice any real effect that cards have. Pretty much every battle I have played the fleet with the higher number almost always wins. Combat the way it is now is rather dull and only worth skipping not playing.

I also think that the battle should not be rushed as it is. I also saw the same fleet pick differente cards on the same situation and i would like to know how and each card affects the other. As it stands, it all comes down to luck and this sucks. I would like to beggin the battle in a paused mode, pick the cards and the click to start the battle or unpause. This is the only aspect of the game that i did not liked at all.