[Discussion] Shield performance suboptimal - Endless Space

[Discussion] Shield performance suboptimal

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ruonim

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ruonim

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13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 7:30:58 PM

I would like it to work like flak and deflector works. Currently flak and deflector still works late game. While shields are useless.

Shields currently absorb damage while flak/deflectors negate projectiles. Making shield negate beam shoots would fix it.

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Fishman

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Fishman

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13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 7:49:10 PM

Disagree and oppose. Shields absorb damage, which is BETTER than simply "negating a beam shot". A top-end beam shield will absorb 250 lazor damage, which is more than the 200-220 damage the beam of corresponding tech level causes. In comparison, the top end missile defense stops ONE missile, regardless of tech level, which is no better than version 1.0, while taking up a good deal more space. If you're being bombarded with shitty missiles and have 10 of the best missile defenses, 10 missiles are stopped cold, the 11th missile kills you dead. If you're being bombarded with shitty beams and have 1 beam defense, your 1 beam defense laughs in the face of 10 of their beams. Kinetics works somewhat similar to beams, since the damage of advanced kinetics increases typically by more projectiles, rather than more damaging projectiles, and kinetic armor increases projectiles blocked.

However, the fact of the matter is, it is MISSILES that exhibits the phenomenon you describe, and your claim about late-game shields being useless is bollocks. And it's not even that the shields are useless...but that the missiles are useless, since they are easily shot down by even primitive missile defenses 4 or 5 tech levels behind, while beams simply tear through primitive defenses like a bazooka through a snot-filled tissue.

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ruonim

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ruonim

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13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 8:30:36 PM

I should have recorded you how leviathan fleet with 20 shields dies to beam only setup destroyer fleet. Yes you killed some cheap and fast producing destroyers, but it does metter? When you can produce 4x as many as leviathans?

Currently all top score players spam beam only destroyers late game guess why.

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MODNosferatiel

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"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

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13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 9:02:43 PM

Edited the title and turned the thread into a discussion.

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Fishman

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Fishman

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13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 9:12:13 PM

ruonim wrote:
I should have recorded you how leviathan fleet with 20 shields dies to beam only setup destroyer fleet. Yes you killed some cheap and fast producing destroyers, but it does metter? When you can produce 4x as many as leviathans?

20 shields? You call that a defense? No wonder they died. You really need to be sticking like 30 or 40 or even 50 shields on it. At some point your ship will become invulnerable: It's inevitable, the deflection power of a single defense exceeds the damaging power of the weapon of the same level in the same space. Since battleships and destroyers have complementary bonii, DDs having 25% more firepower, BBs having 25% more armor, and the same Space/CP ratios, a BB fleet can fit one defense for every one weapon a DD fleet can carry. And each defense will negate one weapon, with some small change left over...and on top of that, defenses are not consumed if the enemy fails to even hit the target. Meaning, if I have 1 gun and 10 defenses and you have 11 guns, I crush you like a bug because your 11 guns cannot penetrate my 10 defenses even if they all hit, while my one gun is firing unopposed and will therefore kill you.

And yes, you've only killed some cheap and fast-producing destroyers, but you can KEEP killing them until the cows come home, or, more likely, he gives up in frustration and spams something else. Meanwhile, the resources you are NOT using on building trash that ends up dying next turn can be spent on doing something useful. Remember, in this matchup, I have an infiinite kill ratio. My ships are invulnerable here, they will last until you change your tune.

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Stalker0

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Stalker0

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13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 11:22:01 PM

ruonim wrote:
I should have recorded you how leviathan fleet with 20 shields dies to beam only setup destroyer fleet. Yes you killed some cheap and fast producing destroyers, but it does metter? When you can produce 4x as many as leviathans?

Currently all top score players spam beam only destroyers late game guess why.

this is an issue in general, not just with shields. All heavy with any strong defense will ultimately fall to squads of offensive destroyers

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 13, 2012, 11:27:31 PM

O.O

Never had this happen to me....but i do have a habit of using the level 3 defensive affinity....

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Evil4Zerggin

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Evil4Zerggin

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13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 12:13:03 AM

The problem is that beam weapons become harder to stop when they have damage bonuses, which is not the case for missiles and kinetics.

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VIPflipstar

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VIPflipstar

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13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 3:48:10 AM

In the late game on Serious or Impossible AI they almost always tend to go either missile barrage or beam spam glass cannon fleets (9 times out of 10 lol), so instead of my usual 2:1 defense to weapons ratio, I go 4 or even 4:1 with no problem (even post nano-repair card fix). I always ensure that my defensive tech is always ahead of my weapons tech

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sterrius

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sterrius

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13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 10:49:44 AM

I think the specialized ships should be a big risk / high reward.

But also not make a "generic fleet" a sure loss.

A fleet having equal number of all 3 weapons and all 3 defenses in a 1/1 ratio or 1/2 ratio should be able to hold its ground and not be destroyed in phase 3 just because it not brought only Shields. (Even more if its a big ship).

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Miesha

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Miesha

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13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 6:19:23 PM

Basically ships need more health.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 7:11:04 PM

Medium ships already have 2X the hp of smaller ones, and there are meany improvements that can be built to improve it, modules for increasing HP, and ships that level up get an even bigger boost (A level 10 ship gets a whopping 800% boost to hp!).

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Stalker0

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Stalker0

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13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 8:20:20 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
Medium ships already have 2X the hp of smaller ones, and there are meany improvements that can be built to improve it, modules for increasing HP, and ships that level up get an even bigger boost (A level 10 ship gets a whopping 800% boost to hp!).

I know for me, the best ship level I've gotten is 5. Has anyone gotten to level 10 on a ship?

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 9:26:14 PM

Not me, i got a fleet to have a single level 4 cruiser, but the fleet was under the protection of my pilot hero of power.

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Evil4Zerggin

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Evil4Zerggin

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13 years ago

Jul 14, 2012, 9:35:09 PM

Level 10 takes a long time--I'd say it takes close to 100 battles.

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Combat_Sheep888

Officer

Combat_Sheep888

Officer

13 years ago

Jul 15, 2012, 9:16:30 AM

It does seem like going for more command points to get larger fleets, and having some destroyers in there is the way to go. I've been focussing on larger ships, but have lost so many battles recently. I'm also not totally understanding flak as I'm sure I've had a small number in a ship but it has seemed to send up almost a cloud of flak and stopped more than the few missiles it should have.

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