Whats the difference?



both give bonuses to fleets as far as i can tell.



surly a pilot hero should give large bonuses to a single ship and admirals should give small bonuses to everyone?

You can see the difference by looking into the detailed ability tree:



/#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14037-hero-skills-tree



It is really too bad there is no way to get this information *in game* where it belongs.



Many people have commented that the admin hero seems more powerful than any of the others. While you are looking at the tree, please make any suggestions about how we could make a fourth level pilot, or any of the classes, equally interesting to a fourth level admin with +8 labor (+16% food and industry) plus a flat 25 industry plus either +20% industry or +30 happiness. Right now, everybody would pick the fourth level admin.



/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/9149-the-25-industry-hero-bonus-is-too-good.

Thanks for the heads up 'Captain!'



from the looks of it Admirals had a lot of unique battle cards, bonuses for fighting other hero's and XP bonuses



Where as the pilot has a meany choices for boosting attack, defense, repair and speed along with 2 battle cards.



It looks as if a pilot heroes is much better for a fleet then an admiral hero.



Current lvl 4 pilot heros: assailant 1/defender 1, veteran 1, engine tuner 1, engine turner 2/tinkerer 1.



Resulting in an extra: +3 offense/+3 defense, +1 all, +2 fleet speed, +3 fleet speed/+2 defense +1 offense.



+4 defense and + 5 Fleet speed on a early hero is quite massive for exploration and defending early fleets, making the pilot effective for an early game rush.



But a strategy of +5 Offense +6 Defense and +2 speed is undeniably powerful throughout the game.





Current lvl 4 admiral A:assailant 1, dust warheads card, tactician 1, tactician 2.



Resulting in an extra: +3 offense, Dust warheads battle card, -6% enemy accuracy, -7 enemy accuracy.



Seems like a robust build, but will the early play have enough dust to use the dust warheads? although -13% enemy accuracy will grow into its worth.





Current lvl 4 admiral B:defender 1, defender 2, Ultimate defense card, tactician 1.



Resulting in an extra: +3 defense, +3 defense, Ultimate defense battle card, -6% enemy accuracy.



This build is extremely defense oriented with +6 defense, -6 enemy accuracy and the ultimate defense card boosting defenses! but again will the player have enough dust to support it?

Thanks for investigating the possible builds. In the early game, the admin hero seems incredibly valuable, especially when moving to a new system every 6 turns to bootstrap it. In the early game, it is "unlikely" that there will be any combat. Perhaps the +fleet speed is useful to explore fractionally faster. I had not noticed the +1 "all" speed. What new/changed abilities would be needed, to make all four other classes (commander, pilot, adventurer, corporate) competitive with the L4 admin?



Others have suggested a flat +25 science. Perhaps a +2 "all" speed, to boost exploration. Maybe a special combat card like "defensive retreat" which involves taking no damage?



I have noticed the AI often puts low level heroes on its scout fleets. I see this when I blow them up and get XP. I wonder if heroes on exploration ships get XP? Or else why does the AI do this?

davea wrote:
Thanks for investigating the possible builds. In the early game, the admin hero seems incredibly valuable, especially when moving to a new system every 6 turns to bootstrap it. In the early game, it is "unlikely" that there will be any combat. Perhaps the +fleet speed is useful to explore fractionally faster. I had not noticed the +1 "all" speed. What new/changed abilities would be needed, to make all four other classes (commander, pilot, adventurer, corporate) competitive with the L4 admin?

Sorry i must have mis-wrote, the "+1 all" is for the ability's of the hero, giving him +1 in all areas.



And as for suggestions towards a coperate hero, by level 4 a corporate hero (Assuming he starts with 3 wit) can go for 'Savvy business 3' giving him 6 wit and a bonus to trade income of +9% per wit (That's 54% better trade!) or the corporate hero can go strait to Negotiator 3 and snag either 'smart investor 1' or 'value creator 1', leaving him with 13 wit! (Assuming he starts with 3 wit) and either +20% trade route bonus or +1 extra route!



A trading hero for sure! But there is no alternative for science anywhere other then acquiring extra wit, so i propose that after negotiator 2 the corporate hero should get at least 2 science based upgrades, like the ones already suggested.



A level 4 adventurer is only capable of getting 2 unique perks, 'foresight' from 'defender 1' (Gives +2 vision on fleets and systems) and the 'Armor weak point' battle card (Reduces enemy defenses by 20%). So all in all not very good choice.



So if i was to make suggestions here i go:



Pirating 1 (Requires assailant 1) Steals 1 random strategic or luxury (preference to monopoly, for you or them) resource from un-owned system.

Pirating 2 (Requires assailant 2 and Pirating 1) Steals 2 strategic or luxury (preference to monopoly, for you or them) resource from un-owned system.



which is all i can think of so far.

davea wrote:
Others have suggested a flat +25 science. Perhaps a +2 "all" speed, to boost exploration. Maybe a special combat card like "defensive retreat" which involves taking no damage?

Isn't that one a research?

davea wrote:
I have noticed the AI often puts low level heroes on its scout fleets. I see this when I blow them up and get XP. I wonder if heroes on exploration ships get XP? Or else why does the AI do this?

I have noticed this, they might think that the heroes skills might buff the ship enough to survive a battle but they are mistaken.



However a hero getting XP for discovering star systems (Possibly at a much greater speed then in a colony) is an idea that might be fun to include.

The game code for the ability tree and ability values is here, in xml files HeroAbilities.xml and HeroDescriptors.xml:

/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/15656-all-your-xml-are-belong-to-us

So, we can mod it if we can get some good ideas of what the low level class skills should be.

Having played around with the Admiral vs Pilot I've been able to draw a few comparisons.



Where the Pilot shines is flat our better stats line when taking the Pilot skills. At higher levels you're Pilot ends up with an offence and defence level somewhere in the mid-high 20's depending on their base line stats. Combined with the bonus speed traits a Pilot's fleet with just be plain faster and stronger then an admirals.



The admiral of is definitely the weaker of the two classes it would seem but its still very hard to say that his passive -accuracy to enemy weapons isn't great. At level 2 its only 2% shy of a sabotage card. Which effectively gives you a second card played each round of combat that's entirely uncounterable. And the in combat dust cards are also a nice touch, although I think perhaps making them ucounterable would be a nice buff to them and perhaps needed.



The wild card addition not yet mentioned is the adventurer class. Who seems to have a higher base melee line then either of the other classes and some nice skills. While given the choice I don't take the adventurer skills first the demolition expert (dust on ships killed) and later on master hacker (uses the detection radius of currently stationed enemy system) are nice skills to have. Picking up the demo skill early can give you a nice economy boost if your goal is early warmongering. The problem is they both hide fairly far into the tree and aren't good enough to warrant picking up over skills from other classes.



As for suggestions I think I would like to see the admiral gain a class specific melee bonus skill and/or a bonus to command cap for the fleet currently assigned to. Both changes would be a nice buff to the class and still reflect the lore/flavour of the class as a consummate tactician. The actual numbers would be entirely changeable for balance and I'm unsure where they would go in the tree.



The pilot I believe is fine as is and right now is my first choice of fleet hero, to be picked up in conjunction with my first war effort. If I don't plan to go to war any time soon, I pick up a second system hero if available.



The adventurer would probably be my preferred secondary class for a fleet hero courtesy of the higher base line melee stat and the utility they provide. But for making them more desirable as a first choice and keeping with the flavour of the hero I'm quite stumped. They seem to be far more a utility role then anything else and I'm not sure what the devs had in mind when creating the class. Perhaps some defensive/misdirection abilities. Something along the lines of a cheat death style skill that has a chance to save ships that would be otherwise destroyed or a buff to the dust leech skill with an added research leech or chance to flat out steal a tech from an enemy faction.

Renamed the title and actually made it a discussion.

Thanks

Connal wrote:
Having played around with the Admiral vs Pilot I've been able to draw a few comparisons.



Where the Pilot shines is flat our better stats line when taking the Pilot skills. At higher levels you're Pilot ends up with an offence and defence level somewhere in the mid-high 20's depending on their base line stats. Combined with the bonus speed traits a Pilot's fleet with just be plain faster and stronger then an admirals.



The admiral of is definitely the weaker of the two classes it would seem but its still very hard to say that his passive -accuracy to enemy weapons isn't great. At level 2 its only 2% shy of a sabotage card. Which effectively gives you a second card played each round of combat that's entirely uncounterable. And the in combat dust cards are also a nice touch, although I think perhaps making them ucounterable would be a nice buff to them and perhaps needed.



The wild card addition not yet mentioned is the adventurer class. Who seems to have a higher base melee line then either of the other classes and some nice skills. While given the choice I don't take the adventurer skills first the demolition expert (dust on ships killed) and later on master hacker (uses the detection radius of currently stationed enemy system) are nice skills to have. Picking up the demo skill early can give you a nice economy boost if your goal is early warmongering. The problem is they both hide fairly far into the tree and aren't good enough to warrant picking up over skills from other classes.



As for suggestions I think I would like to see the admiral gain a class specific melee bonus skill and/or a bonus to command cap for the fleet currently assigned to. Both changes would be a nice buff to the class and still reflect the lore/flavour of the class as a consummate tactician. The actual numbers would be entirely changeable for balance and I'm unsure where they would go in the tree.



The pilot I believe is fine as is and right now is my first choice of fleet hero, to be picked up in conjunction with my first war effort. If I don't plan to go to war any time soon, I pick up a second system hero if available.



The adventurer would probably be my preferred secondary class for a fleet hero courtesy of the higher base line melee stat and the utility they provide. But for making them more desirable as a first choice and keeping with the flavour of the hero I'm quite stumped. They seem to be far more a utility role then anything else and I'm not sure what the devs had in mind when creating the class. Perhaps some defensive/misdirection abilities. Something along the lines of a cheat death style skill that has a chance to save ships that would be otherwise destroyed or a buff to the dust leech skill with an added research leech or chance to flat out steal a tech from an enemy faction.

For the Admiral suggestion you mean bonus on the perks instead of just having them yes?



And for the adventurer, seems like a very Spy/Pirate type of class and what you say is intriguing.



Administrators buff growth and approval



Corporate buff trade (And suggested that they buff science)



Pilot actively buff fleets with attack defense and movement



Commanders passively buff fleets with combat cards and counter hero stuff (And with the suggested buff to invasion power and fleet cap)



Adventurers spy, steal and give fleets powerful attack cards and later on have some nice boosts to fleets and destroying ships (But i can easily see them having perks all over in order to make them a good jack of all trades, master of none)



Personally i think we need to expand all of their choices, and promote diversity.

Bumping this thread. I have the technology to do small reordering on the ability tree. If somebody can outline a proposal to make the other classes more interesting, I can make a mod.



/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/15801-released-community-bug-fix-balance-mod

I would like to see Adventurer developed into a melee invasion/defense specialist.



First:

Move Battle Action: Armor Weak Point under Assailant 1.



Adventurers have one ability to select outside of the Veteran Tree. Make it two, and encourage diversity in early build options. Adventurers have to take one of the 4 basic skills, and none are particularly useful, so give an option to players who prefer offense for their first point.



Second:

Move Battle Action: Beam Surge to the previous location of Battle Action: Armor Weak Point



Beam Surge requires level 5, and only buffs one weapon type. It just seems too deep for the current effect, so cheapen the investment by moving it up to replace Armor Weak Point.



Neither of these changes affects the current role of the class. For that, allow adventurers to accelerate the assimilation of an invaded system into the empire. I doubt that is something that can be modded at this point, but that is the sort of flavor skill the class needs.

Actually this isn't hard to mod. I have overhauled the corporate hero as outlined in my thread link above. I don't find the adventurer abilities very interesting myself; I always go with "ground pounder" on the classes where it is available, and against the AI I never need ground defense abilities. I like weak point, but beam surge is the same as the solar mining card.



Modding today allows us to change the details of some stats (see the linked thread) but not to add new features. So, we can think about an adventurer overhaul in two phases: today (change details), and "future" (add new features). For today, what would make the adventurer more interesting? I always think of Han Solo, like a smuggler, but the existing blockade abilities seem pretty weak.



What can we put here to make the adventurer better?

Brainstorming Time



Adventurer suggestions.



I feel like the adventurer could really be the most versatile hero in the game, with the ability to affect everything in some way they could really become a hero for any situation, with the others being good for a specific purpose.



Foreign Expertise: Gives an additional +5 FIDS on a system.

Secret Stellar Lanes: +2 Trade routes.

Endless Repository: +10% Reserch.

Corporate Corruption: -10% Industrial cost.



Spy Networks: Gives vision on enemy ships moving towards the heroes fleet when at a system.

Gap Emitters: Makes the heroes fleet invisible while in transit.

Uncivilized Warfare: +5 Melee.

Corporate Connections: +5% fleet healing per turn in friendly space.

These are great ideas. Except for gap emitters, I am pretty sure these are all moddable. If we can put together a proposal, I can mod it.

davea wrote:
These are great ideas. Except for gap emitters, I am pretty sure these are all moddable. If we can put together a proposal, I can mod it.

Always worth a try.

I really like the Idea of the bonus to command cap ability for the Admiral, so the admirals fleet can be slightly larger than your other fleets. I think it works for flavor and for game play.



I feel like the Adventurer should have some kind of escape ability that lets him get away from a destroyed fleet without being wounded perhaps something like.



Discretion is the better part of Valor: 50% chance to escape a destroyed fleet.



Smuggling: Get a random resource from another empire (would add +1 to one of your lux or strategic resources)



Just my 2 cents.