Feeble/Fearless Warriors

Evil4Zerggin

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 4, 2012, 12:28:21 PM

Apheirox wrote:
Regarding percentage: That's just silly-talk. +10 per pop is +50%. Lowering it to 10% would cause it to going back to being useless like it is now.

10 per pop is not that much either when you consider that the first defense improvement gives 25 per pop, and things only increase faster from there. I think it should be something more like 20% to 40%.

Mikey

Newcomer

Mikey

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500g2g pts

12 years ago

Aug 7, 2012, 3:23:53 AM

Mechanically speaking, the easiest and cleanest way to make these traits apply as a multiplier is to change their target property to SystemInvasionDefense instead of Defense. Heroes and improvements all add and multiply Defense, which is then added to SystemInvasionDefense (the actual engine-utilized defense value), so any one Percent modifier to that value will apply after this addition and act as a global multiplier to that faction's invasion defense.

Doing this for invasion as well means that you pretty much have to use Multiplication (since there is no second value for ship-level invasion), which doesn't display well in the UI (one decimal place only).

AtomSoldat

Newcomer

AtomSoldat

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 7, 2012, 12:39:25 AM

Well it only seems sensible to me, that if my race consists out of Schwarzeneggers, they

will do better in both invasions and defences.

I don't know wether i correctly understood what you wrote, but if only one kind of

addition is easily done, could one perhaps add a modifier, that is positive or negative depending on the situation?

So if i have feeble warriors my own invasion-strength is reduced, and the enemy gets a bonus on attacking me.

davea

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davea

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700g2g pts

12 years ago

Aug 7, 2012, 12:34:04 AM

With the current game release, it is possible for a mod to change one modifier (+flat to invasion defense) into another modifier (+% to invasion strength). It is *possible*, but highly painful, to add modifiers. Once actual modding support is released in the game, I can make it affect both. Do you feel one is more useful than another, or should the trait affect both?

AtomSoldat

Newcomer

AtomSoldat

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 6, 2012, 7:47:24 PM

davea wrote:
In my trait rebalance mod, I have changed these traits so that they affect invasion *strength* only, by +10% per level. What do you think?

/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/16327-mod-shopping-mall

I think why doesn't it affect the defenders anymore?

It should imho.

Aureus

Newcomer

Aureus

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 5, 2012, 12:14:57 AM

Sentiel wrote:
Agreed.

2pop might defend worse than 1 pop, if the nation of the 2pop is made of a non-militaristic (feeble warrior) race, compared to a smaller but military-driven race (fearless warrior).

It's like ancient greece; Athens (feeble) vs Sparta (fearless)

Besides the glaring generalization of the historical example, I agree with this. As it is right now, the positive trait is worthless because it scarcely affects anything. Having it increase with every POP on a planet, or making it a percentage boost to the total defence of a system would be best I think.

Sentiel

Newcomer

Sentiel

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 4, 2012, 10:28:01 PM

Combat_Koala wrote:
It should be a percentage

Agreed.

2pop might defend worse than 1 pop, if the nation of the 2pop is made of a non-militaristic (feeble warrior) race, compared to a smaller but military-driven race (fearless warrior).

It's like ancient greece; Athens (feeble) vs Sparta (fearless)

Apheirox

Newcomer

Apheirox

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 4, 2012, 7:00:29 PM

Evil4Zerggin wrote:
10 per pop is not that much either when you consider that the first defense improvement gives 25 per pop, and things only increase faster from there. I think it should be something more like 20% to 40%.

Disagreed. +10 per pop is considerable up until the very late game and even then you still need to have actually built the improvement to see the benefit. I would think +10 easily fits into your 20-40% margin if not more. Either way, the very late game isn't really relevant to discuss. The real strength of the trait is (should be - when it has been fixed, that is) that it makes your colonies hardier throughout most of the game even if you haven't actually invested into defensive improvements. It makes sense that the trait loses some of its strength as you build still more improvments: Even if the Sophons are frail and make poor soldiers they can compensate for it through the use of technology - bunkers, defensive emplacements, gravity warping (!) and so on.

Regardless, the point of this thread is to bring to the attention of the developers an obvious bug. What to do about it I'll leave up to Amplitude.

davea

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davea

Newcomer

700g2g pts

12 years ago

Aug 4, 2012, 4:56:55 PM

In my trait rebalance mod, I have changed these traits so that they affect invasion *strength* only, by +10% per level. What do you think?

/#/endless-space/forum/37-modding/thread/16327-mod-shopping-mall

Apheirox

Newcomer

Apheirox

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 2, 2012, 9:21:37 AM

These traits currently provide a flat malus/bonus, making the trait essentially meaningless. It should obviously have been -10/+10 per pop since it makes no sense that only the first pop on a planet is feeble/fearless.

Several more features pertaining to invasions (example: invasion recovery) need to be looked at but the above one is particularly nasty.

WhiteWeasel

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WhiteWeasel

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6 500g2g pts

12 years ago

Aug 4, 2012, 9:42:39 AM

I also see feeble warriors as free AP to your custom faction.

AtomSoldat

Newcomer

AtomSoldat

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 3, 2012, 9:27:09 PM

Just wanted to add that Fearless/Feeble warriors should also apply when invading a system and not only when defending.

ChapterSerf

Blue Heretic

Tiz, please, you're getting bumpkin all over my feral bikini woman fantasy. --Ringabel

ChapterSerf

Blue Heretic

19 300g2g pts

12 years ago

Aug 3, 2012, 3:13:38 PM

I was thinking that if it was percentage, it would be overall. Say a system (when taking into account everything, population, improvements etc.) has 10,000 defense, and you have the +10% bonus, then your system has 11,000. Likewise with the malus, your system would have 9,000.

Apheirox

Newcomer

Apheirox

Newcomer

12 years ago

Aug 3, 2012, 12:53:01 PM

davea wrote:
Moved to discussion forum. It is not clear that a malus per pop is any better -- why should 2 pop defend worse than 1?

Hmm, seems obvious enough to me that it's a bug but I'll explain. I hope you will move the thread back.

System defense is based on pop count. You get 20 defense per pop by default. The traits here are then supposed to modify that value by +/- 10. Feeble Warriors on Sophons is because the Sophons are frail and do not have a mindset for war. Clearly this pertains to their society as a whole and not just 'the first pop on the planet' which would be utterly ridiculous. The Sophon intro movie even discusses this. UE are the reverse, having a warlike (or at least very willing to defend their turf) culture. Isn't it also obvious that a massive homeworld system with billions of citizens is better defended than some asteroid cluster in the middle of nowhere? Hence, it applies per pop.

Every other kind of invasion defense in the game is also pop based, they all provide a modifier to defense per pop.

That it's a bug is further made clear by the fact the trait as is is utterly meaningless unless you intend to invade a lot of size 1-3 planets - not bloody likely this is what the developers intended.

Regarding percentage: That's just silly-talk. +10 per pop is +50%. Lowering it to 10% would cause it to going back to being useless like it is now.

@ Aureus: It is utterly meaningless as is now and is mostly (ab)used to give you free negative points for custom factions so you can create an overpowered race.

Aureus

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Aureus

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