I always disliked the magic dust upgrades. I would much prefer to have to use systems with sufficient resources to modify existing ships.



I would like to add another idea, scrapping ships could contribute part of their build cost, say a fourth or so, to whatever is being built on the system not to exceed the number of points of industry that system generates on its own

ørret wrote:
I dont like the idea of getting hands on the "retrofit with industry" possibility so late in game. Its illogical. Why do i have the tech to build complete spacecrafts and to move them in-and out hangar as i wish rigth on the beginning of the game while i need some sophisticated tech researched in order to be able to stuff some other weapons in?

I removed the option to avoid exploits, such as mass producing unarmed destroyers everywhere and then sending them to your one big production centre to kit them all out far faster than they could be built back in their home systems or your single production system could hope to build the more advanced version fresh off the production line. I'm sure you could balance it in other ways, but why even entertain the possibility?

Veneke wrote:
I removed the option to avoid exploits, such as mass producing unarmed destroyers everywhere and then sending them to your one big production centre to kit them all out far faster than they could be built back in their home systems or your single production system could hope to build the more advanced version fresh off the production line. I'm sure you could balance it in other ways, but why even entertain the possibility?

Well see to me, even that concept is an interesting one. It would be balanced somewhat, in terms of travel time, and tactical complication to set something up like that. Also, you would need to make an unfitted destroyer design, then queue up a bunch of them, and then upgrade the fit in order for it to be done.



At the same time though, its not actually an exploit at all. I mentioned in the original post that a player should pay 100% of the industry cost, plus an additional percentage (anywhere from 10% to 50%, depending on needed balance) for switching weapons. Thus, if the system were done that way, a player would actually spend more industry in building ships, and retrofitting them later. Factor in travel time, and no matter which way you slice it, you're actually being less efficient when making ships in one system, and retrofitting them in another.

Yes, however something like this would be implemented, it should NOT be modeled on the current discounted retrofit concept-- which really needs to be replaced by at least a cost-differential-plus-percent-of-total-cost-fee type system.



Right now, making tiny changes to a design costs the same as taking an empty hull and turning it into a fully-fit warship. Frustrating on one end, exploitable on the other.

SomeoneStrange wrote:
Well see to me, even that concept is an interesting one. It would be balanced somewhat, in terms of travel time, and tactical complication to set something up like that. Also, you would need to make an unfitted destroyer design, then queue up a bunch of them, and then upgrade the fit in order for it to be done.



At the same time though, its not actually an exploit at all. I mentioned in the original post that a player should pay 100% of the industry cost, plus an additional percentage (anywhere from 10% to 50%, depending on needed balance) for switching weapons. Thus, if the system were done that way, a player would actually spend more industry in building ships, and retrofitting them later. Factor in travel time, and no matter which way you slice it, you're actually being less efficient when making ships in one system, and retrofitting them in another.

The fact that it is difficult to do doesn't make it any less of an exploit, really. Travel time? Maybe a factor but I doubt it. That aside, you could work with % cost differentials for upgrades sure. I just decided that it would be better to avoid the hassle of figuring that out and then balancing that.

Veneke wrote:
The fact that it is difficult to do doesn't make it any less of an exploit, really. Travel time? Maybe a factor but I doubt it. That aside, you could work with % cost differentials for upgrades sure. I just decided that it would be better to avoid the hassle of figuring that out and then balancing that.

I don't see the point. Retrofit with industry still costs "industry" and of course the cost for the retrofit should be linked to the cost of the retrofittet equipment and should not be kind of a "flat-rate" as it is implemented now where it doesnt matter if you just ad one gun or completely fill an empty ship hull with armor.



And if you decide to build the ship hull in one system and retrofit it in another...well why not? This is no real exploid, the only benefit in doing so would be to share the production of one ship between two system (one produces the hull and the other produces the equipment). This is exactly what happens in modern industry (e.g. car manufacturing).

My concern is that mass-producing loads of empty hulls and shipping them to a big production system will see substantially quicker production rates, particularly of destroyers, early in the game which the AI is unlikely to be able to replicate. Given that early advantages tend to snowball if the AI can't handle it, it's probably best avoided. Plus the fact that I thought it was not an intended function of the retrofit with industry option.

I don't think the mass producing of empty hulls is an option for anyone... yes you can do it but to be effective you have to wait and collect all your empty built ships, concentrate them in one system, then upgrade the hull design, THEN retrofit with industry... that's kinda complicated and if you factor the added cost of industry in to retrofit, then you'll be balanced,



By the way, what is the cost for an empty destroyer class and for a full upgraded one ? ( industry points I mean by that) wasn't it around 200 for empty, and 400 -500 for a full upgraded one ?



I don't think that would be feasible for anyone, you effectively block another system from producing upgrades ( which you should not do at the beginning stage of the game )

There's absolutely no reason why a well-designed retrofit system needs to allow any such exploits. The cost to retrofit should always be MORE than the difference in hull cost, so total production with some kind of distributed industry- or dust-based retrofit scheme should always be lower/more expensive.



The current system is so highly flawed because it doesn't take cost difference (or module type changes) into account, which is why it's so terrible for small retrofits and so broken for huge ones.

This has been added to summary list for Dev Team to consider under Interfaces > UI - Docking Fleets for repair/Retrofit

jetkar wrote:
This has been added to summary list for Dev Team to consider under Interfaces > UI - Docking Fleets for repair/Retrofit

I think it is too much micromanagement to have to put ships in docks to speed up the repair process. What is really the benefit?

Veneke wrote:


3. Starbase = Provides large flat HP/turn. Small % discount (dust) to retrofits, needed to perform Industry-only retrofits. Very expensive to build and maintain. Available around Battleships?

I dont like the idea of getting hands on the "retrofit with industry" possibility so late in game. Its illogical. Why do i have the tech to build complete spacecrafts and to move them in-and out hangar as i wish rigth on the beginning of the game while i need some sophisticated tech researched in order to be able to stuff some other weapons in?

Shivetya wrote:
I would like to add another idea, scrapping ships could contribute part of their build cost, say a fourth or so, to whatever is being built on the system not to exceed the number of points of industry that system generates on its own

This is a great idea. It would surelly improve the gameplay.

I would just love to be able to retrofit my ships with new modules instead of scrapping them and building new ones.

Shivetya wrote:
I always disliked the magic dust upgrades.

Just replace "Dust" with "Mana" and viola you've got first (?) magic space 4X game.

ChillingTouch wrote:
Just replace "Dust" with "Mana" and viola you've got first (?) magic space 4X game.

...that's even the vaguely official explanation, isn't it, with dust Dust being sufficiently advanced nano-tech magic.

WhatGravitas wrote:
...that's even the vaguely official explanation, isn't it, with dust Dust being sufficiently advanced nano-tech magic.

LOL I see the protagonist screaming..... OMG Dust is Endurium....

GJDriessen wrote:
I think it is too much micromanagement to have to put ships in docks to speed up the repair process. What is really the benefit?

This basically - your suggestions could be done much more efficiently just by having damaged ships automatically steal industry points while repairing in a friendly system.

Shouldn't be too complicated whatever it is. Rather than putting your ships in hangars for repairs they could perhaps stay in orbit and have dockyards there... otherwise one may lose oversight of where one's ships are etc. A simple repair option connected to dust or industry would do...

n18991c wrote:
Shouldn't be too complicated whatever it is. Rather than putting your ships in hangars for repairs they could perhaps stay in orbit and have dockyards there... otherwise one may lose oversight of where one's ships are etc. A simple repair option connected to dust or industry would do...

This works too. If the additional micromanagement of putting in the hanger is too much for the game then yea, the same concepts can be just done in orbit with the addition of some orbital improvements.

What would you think as well of being able to canibalize ships for repairs and modules so you could fix or customize a ship on the fly by just destroying another ship for parts and materials?

It doesn't make economic sense that a industry retrofit would take more industry than a normal built ship, if that was the case it would be cheaper to scratch the older ships and build new ones from scratch. To be useful industry retrofit would cost 100% - cost of the hull - shared modules cost.



Additionally, the build empty hull strategy would be a zero sum game with 100% cost (assuming you can only retrofit a single ship at a time).

Nosferatiel wrote:
Well, I linked your thread to the two original proposals of the topic.



This thread is moved to the discussion section as the corresponding poll for both ideas of retrofitting and repairing ships.

Thanks very much for the links! Just as a heads up, the key point of the original idea was to be able to Retrofit and Repair using industry, instead of Dust. I didn't see that concept listed in any of the linked suggestions - but as long as you guys are aware of it, I'm happy.

Previous discussion thread with lots of good ideas: /#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13936-allow-a-fleet-to-dock-at-a-system-for-repair-retrofit



As to the repair function, I think just "docking" in the hanger could speed up repair time.



So if you dock to repair then repair just happens faster, say 50% faster. If you have an improvement built like an Orbital Shipyard then repair rate is 100% faster. Something like that.

That's a thought too. Personally, I'm of the opinion that it should cost something for accelerated repairs, but if/how the devs decide to implement it is up to them. I do like your idea in that its fairly straightforward, and simple. What I don't like is that even with a 100% boost, unless I fit repair mods to my ships, it will still take them forever to fully heal.

This seems like a good addition to me.

Bump up for some more votes. This is a great suggestion.

1st. Definitly should be added.

jetkar wrote:
Nice suggestion however I have to allow minimum 7 days to monitor poll at the same time achieving a minimum of 10 votes before the suggestion is placed on summary list for the Creative Director & Dev Team to consider further

Seems we have to wait until next week to submit this one to the devs. Based on the poll results here though, we'll be able to catch their attention. Thanks to everyone who voted, as well as all those who gave feedback!

Since I have already lurked in the other thread I do of course support this.

Well, I linked your thread to the two original proposals of the topic.



This thread is moved to the discussion section as the corresponding poll for both ideas of retrofitting and repairing ships.

I like the idea, and think its fine just to implement a passive repair bonus without cost, especially if there is a building improvement to speed it up.

If those two new features were added, it would be better to save dust, as in the late game retrofits are very very expensive.

I like the idea of having an Orbital Shipyard for repair/retrofit, and it being based on the Industry output of the system. Maybe it could run something like 25% of Industry output correlates to repair time/retrofit cost so that it scales with System growth? Then an option to make System production focus on Shipyard efforts to double the effects at the expense of not being able to build other improvements, like the system currently in place for boosting Dust and Science outputs?



The suggestion of using the hangar for repair and retrofit is also appealing, but maybe it should have an effect somewhere around 25-50% increase of the fleet's own repair capabilities and a 25% decrease in Dust cost for retrofit. I think that would make use of hangar docking appealing early game while not detracting from the usefulness of the Shipyard or value of Dust. May need balancing from there for the hangars, just an idea.

This poll is based on an earlier thread, found here.



The basic principle is that fleets should be allowed to "dock" in systems where a player could use their industrial output to either repair or retrofit their fleet. Here are the key points:



1. A fleet should not be able to undock during a retrofit, in order to prevent players from exploiting the system on the front lines. Undocking during repairs may be an option however.



2. The cost of R&R should be based on the total industry cost of the ships and weapons involved - with a certain percentage added to prevent switching weapons/defenses free of charge. For more details, please see the thread linked above.



3. The cost of R&R should be large enough that it is impractical in a system with a low industrial capacity, giving players tactical reasons to pull their fleets off the front lines, as well as keeping Dust valuable in that it has the ability to perform retrofits immediately, in any player owned system.



4. If needed for balance, a system improvement that would either enable this feature, or reduce its cost could be added. (Orbital Shipyard?)



5. If needed as an additional dust sink after implementation, the ability to repair fleets using Dust in systems with the Orbital Shipyard could be added. The tactical flexibility Dust offers would be emphasized, and Dust shouldn't see its importance decreased by much.



If you like (or dislike) these ideas, please vote in the poll! Every vote helps a new feature like this one get implemented!

It should be possible to "buy" the industry costs of repair/retrofit with dust just as it is done with production so dust keeps its value.

ørret wrote:
It should be possible to "buy" the industry costs of repair/retrofit with dust just as it is done with production so dust keeps its value.

While you can't pay dust for repairs yet, you can currently use it for retrofits. Problem is, there's no way to retrofit without dust so far.

SomeoneStrange wrote:
While you can't pay dust for repairs yet, you can currently use it for retrofits. Problem is, there's no way to retrofit without dust so far.

Yes of course. But due to the ongoing discussion to implemet repair/retrofit with industry it should still be possible to "buy" that production with dust when time is critical.

This is a great suggestion. It'd even be good if putting ships back in the hangar achieved a flat repair/retrofit capability/bonus, though obviously if it were linked to industry and potentially an improvement as well that would be better.

ørret wrote:
Yes of course. But due to the ongoing discussion to implemet repair/retrofit with industry it should still be possible to "buy" that production with dust when time is critical.

Heh, I'm not talking about removing the current ability to retrofit with Dust. I'd like to supplement it though. Personally, I feel that being able to buyout the remaining industrial cost, while neat and lore friendly, would somewhat lessen the tactical drawbacks of repairing this way that are necessary for balance. I believe this system should have serious tactical drawbacks when used - one of which being that your fleet is out of commission until the job is done.



On the other hand, if there was some other penalty... say, you had to pay the entire retrofit cost (the same amount you would have paid in the first place), thus causing you to waste all the industry spent so far in the retrofit, that might be viable. Your idea makes sense, but I think there needs to be some sort of serious drawback involved - otherwise people would just start to retrofit on the front lines, and then buyout as soon as a hostile fleet shows up in order to save dust.

Veneke wrote:
This is a great suggestion. It'd even be good if putting ships back in the hangar achieved a flat repair/retrofit capability/bonus, though obviously if it were linked to industry and potentially an improvement as well that would be better.

Yep, I think both are great. I'd summarize what's in my mind like this:



1) Repair - Dock your ships in the Hanger gives a bonus to repair time. Improvement can increase this speed (i.e. the Orbital Shipyard). Additional improvement (say a Starbase) could allow another repair speed boost and industry to speed up repair even more.



2) Retrofit - Can retrofit via dust when in system as today. Dock ships in the Hanger after you've built the needed improvement you can use industry to retrofit.



Improvements:



Orbital Shipyard - Give increase repair speed

Starbase (upgraded Shipyard) - Another repair speed boost and ability to use industry to retrofit and speed repair even more.



** Now if game mechanics don't allow for industry to be converted in this way then at the least the repair speed boost in the hanger and via improvements are certainly possible. For retrofit maybe with the improvement and in the hanger then maybe the retrofit cost is reduced by x%.



With all this we need a notification to let us know when ships have been repaired to 100% and thus ready to go.

Voted for 1-it makes sense both logically in the fact that instead of building ships the planet's workers could be set to work on currently owned ships. Also we need a way to repair fleets in the first place other and finding low ship battles, where there is no chance of loss, and spamming the engineering nano-repair.

shibby191 wrote:
Yep, I think both are great. I'd summarize what's in my mind like this:



1) Repair - Dock your ships in the Hanger gives a bonus to repair time. Improvement can increase this speed (i.e. the Orbital Shipyard). Additional improvement (say a Starbase) could allow another repair speed boost and industry to speed up repair even more.



2) Retrofit - Can retrofit via dust when in system as today. Dock ships in the Hanger after you've built the needed improvement you can use industry to retrofit.



Improvements:



Orbital Shipyard - Give increase repair speed

Starbase (upgraded Shipyard) - Another repair speed boost and ability to use industry to retrofit and speed repair even more.



** Now if game mechanics don't allow for industry to be converted in this way then at the least the repair speed boost in the hanger and via improvements are certainly possible. For retrofit maybe with the improvement and in the hanger then maybe the retrofit cost is reduced by x%.



With all this we need a notification to let us know when ships have been repaired to 100% and thus ready to go.

Hmmm... I'm not a big fan of 'this does X' and the next version is 'this does X+X'. How about you spread the boosts around? The way I see it there are three stages and two modifiers: Hangar, Shipyard, Starbase and flat HP/turn and % increase to this HP/turn (based on Industry?).



1. Hangar = Provides small flat HP/turn. Available in all systems.

2. Orbital shipyard = Provides % boost to repair rate, ideally based on industry. Available around Cruisers?

3. Starbase = Provides large flat HP/turn. Small % discount (dust) to retrofits, needed to perform Industry-only retrofits. Very expensive to build and maintain. Available around Battleships?



I think if you're going to reduce the retrofit cost by any significant margin it should be the very last improvement slot and rather expensive. The way I see it what you want is in the early game to be able to heal your Frigates and Destroyers just about anywhere for minimal cost (I'm talking about the improvement cost and upkeep here), you'll have a few Orbital Shipyards because they're not too expensive and a repair boost is a repair boost but you'll only a few Starbases spread out amongst your major production/fleet hubs but they'll be rather impressive.



I completely agree on the notification.



Oh and it'd be very nice if we could see these in the system view, but that might be a little much to ask...

SomeoneStrange wrote:
otherwise people would just start to retrofit on the front lines, and then buyout as soon as a hostile fleet shows up in order to save dust.

Thats exactly how it is done rigth now. Invade a weak 1-Planet system and than quickly buy the complete fleet retrofit with dust. Whe the possibility of retrofit with industry is implemented most people will rather be retrofitting the ships with "free" industry in their forge systems saving the dust for...for what then? I think emergency repair and retrofit with dust should remain possible however i agree that this should be very expensive to prevent this from beeing all days business.



Uhm and i dont understand the problem with fleet repair. I rarely have severe damaged ships at all. Usually they get either completely destroyed or barely scratched and the self-repair modules are able to repair damaged ships within a few rounds (if you have some of the lv2 modules in a fleet).

Part of the problem with the current repair mechanics is that most of the repair modules (especially the higher-tech ones) use flat HP bonuses or fleet bonuses for much of their effect, both inordinately favoring large fleets of 1CP ships - which tend not to survive all that well to be repaired in the first place. Large ships which should be more survivable are left out in the cold.



In addition to being able to repair with dust/industry (perhaps incurring a turn or two of downtime in either case), it would help greatly to re-work the repair modules, e.g.:

1) Remove flat HP amounts in favor of percentages, or make those amounts per-CP

2) Remove fleet bonuses, or make those per-CP as well

3) Increase the overall effect (and size, cost) of higher-level repair modules so that they're worth using on larger ships, but not necessarily on destroyers