It's not 12 turns.... its alot earlier. I've only rarely reached the point to terraformed to tundra in multiplayer with other factions, but both times i've played automatons I've terraformed to terran.

1) Don't move the goalpost. We're talking about early and mid-game. Please run 100% taxes then. Show me how it is done.



2) 100% taxes produce 150% dust, not +150% dust.



You're right about the Industry. I thought it begins at 50% taxes, not 25%.

Xenolith wrote:
1) Don't move the goalpost. We're talking about early and mid-game. Please run 100% taxes then. Show me how it is done.



2) 100% taxes produce 150% dust, not +150% dust.



You're right about the Industry. I thought it begins at 50% taxes, not 25%.

Early game you can get to around 45% until you want to start getting your new colony's out of bad approval, its good for getting those colony ships out, by partially building them, and buying the rest.



2: derp that's what I was trying to say.



I assumed you put them in the wrong way round, yes the industry bonus starts at 30% with a 4% boost.



The bonus overall is rather poor early game, but once your colony's are established mid-game and you have 2-3 of the approval structures, you should crank that sucker up as far as you can before too many colony's go into unhappiness, I prefer to only allow 2-3 colony's to do this but that may change on how may you have.

I don't see how reducing your bonus to Industry helps you produce colony ships faster. Yes, you can cheaply buy them out after partially building them, but I doubt you even shave a turn off the actual construction time. And at the same time you cripple Food and Science on all systems.



Of course if you actually get to the endgame with UE and manage to have an empire of competitive size and development, you'll dominate (everyone except Hissho). What I am saying is that this won't happen because early game bonuses are much, much more important than late-game bonuses.

Good tier list. I agree with most of it, but I reckon there should be some minor shifts (my opinion though and geared for multiplayer, i'm interested in what you think.)



Hissho needs to be in special tier: if you're playing with noobs, its the best by far. If you're playing against a pro who rushes you, well gg your affinity is at best +20% weapons with useless unique techs.



Automatons need to go to A tier.

Too many newer players play this (better players build factions that either rush or can at least defend rush), so it makes it look crap all game. But really, automatons affinity is pretty much a total waste at the start, however it gets alot better. Their jungle start would have been good pre-patch, but post-patch dust requirement make it actually worse than terran or arid.

Even so, they have one HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE bonus on everyone else... they can terraform to terran (+special terran hydro is insane) before other guys can terraform to desert. This makes them the strongest faction in a peaceful game. After the stacking interest increase tech, their affinity also becomes relevant, 20% interest roughly equates to about a +40-60% system production overall, making it pretty good.



Horatios should be tier B, the biggest downside is its too luck dependant on getting an admin (or even better admin/corp) hero. Cloning the best admin hero and chucking it on a new planet speeds it up by at least 10 turns. Arid is actually the best homeworld post-patch IMO because dust is so much more relevant. With the homeworld being the only colony for the first 30 turns, being able to get 9 (5 base+4 exploit) dust per pop is huge... compared to say the 4 you would get from jungles and ocean. If you don't get 2xlegendary heroes (like me) you can actually save enough money to buy out around 3/4 the n-way fusion plant. I still think horatio is much better than most of the other B tiers.



Pilgrims need to go to C tier.

Pilgrims affinity is never very relevant. Early on, the wasted industry to build the fleet errant itself is too much a waste, as well as the fact you will really only be moving the n-way fusion plant. With the new fleet upkeep + you depriving the homeworld of pop, you can't afford a sustainable farming on every colony (homeworld would only produce 2 dust per pop since you'd use food exploit to generate pop). Read above for why jungle homeworld is bad now.

Only benefit I can see from it early is to get rich soil anomaly and use your homeworld as a population factory. But I already don't have enough pop on homeworld itself just to keep pumping colony ships for expansion.

Later on, when you have more buildings to transport, you should already have an admin hero of at least lvl 4 with both +15 ind and +20 food, and I also buy out n-way and the +6 to all FIDS (can't remember the name), those together will pretty much mean the fleet errant is useless later as well.



As to other guys comments about UE and Sowers:



UE can be okay so tier B is alright, especially with the recent HP buffs.



Sowers may be good in singleplayer (and no impossible ai should be renamed "I get massive bonuses but I'm still so stupid and therefore easy to beat") but if you play against other players, your start is just too slow.



Say terran planet, 7 food per pop (base + t2 exploit) for other factions. For sowers it would be either 4.3 ([3+4]/2 + 2*0.4) with food exploit or 3.1 (3/2+ [2+2]*0.4) with t2 ind exploit. The t2 ind exploit is a waste of research earlygame and it turns out crapper food so it'll be better for you to stay with the food exploit, this would then also mean you get no ind benefit at the start from your affinity. Its true once you get N-way running thats + 4 total (not per pop), and with 2xlegendary admin thats + 6 total. So once you do have those 2 up, it even up around 4 populations worth of food difference (7-4.3 = 2.7 dif per pop), but by the time you get that up, terran homeworld should have 6 pop already for a non-sower. And you don't have that many (for all your systems) or even any admin hero to start.

The start is just too crippling, SOWERS are sorta like the anti-craver lol. Later on, when you can just buyout n-way fusion plants and you have t-3 ind exploit, you'll start up your colony a little faster than other dudes. And sowers can make better use of some crappier planets such as lava and gas methane, but you can't do that at start without tolerance (crap^10 faction trait) anyways.

Xenolith wrote:
I don't see how reducing your bonus to Industry helps you produce colony ships faster. Yes, you can cheaply buy them out after partially building them, but I doubt you even shave a turn off the actual construction time. And at the same time you cripple Food and Science on all systems.



Of course if you actually get to the endgame with UE and manage to have an empire of competitive size and development, you'll dominate (everyone except Hissho). What I am saying is that this won't happen because early game bonuses are much, much more important than late-game bonuses.

due to the way they an out, I know but what I am saying is the ability to give your home system a large boost to dust while keeping a comparable boost to industry.



This is the way I see it, as it also acts as a great incentive thorough the game to get good approval so you can tax the hell out of them.



I feel the Affinity works well on that basis, and the XP boost is just great.





However you have a different opinion, so in the effort of being constructive, what would you say about improving it?



Possibly increasing the bonus so it out does the approval industry bonus sooner?

Having the bonus start sooner in the tax list, thus ending with a higher bonus?

Or something else?



(I would also like to apologize if I have been rude to you in the way I have responded before, as I feel I might have been a little rude).

ryousei wrote:
Horatios should be tier B, the biggest downside is its too luck dependant on getting an admin (or even better admin/corp) hero. Cloning the best admin hero and chucking it on a new planet speeds it up by at least 10 turns. Arid is actually the best homeworld post-patch IMO because dust is so much more relevant. With the homeworld being the only colony for the first 30 turns, being able to get 9 (5 base+4 exploit) dust per pop is huge... compared to say the 4 you would get from jungles and ocean. If you don't get 2xlegendary heroes (like me) you can actually save enough money to buy out around 3/4 the n-way fusion plant. I still think horatio is much better than most of the other B tiers.

It's true that with a high-dust homeworld you will have no trouble with dust even while rushing. On the other hand you get -1 or -2 food per pop and -1 pop total compared to T1 planets, which hurts your rexing capability. Additionaly you'll have absolutely pitiful science until you colonize meaning later Xenobiology and N-Way Fusion Plants. Now, with the increase in ship maintenance I can actually see them being worthy of B-Tier.

ryousei wrote:
Automatons need to go to A tier.

Too many newer players play this (better players build factions that either rush or can at least defend rush), so it makes it look crap all game. But really, automatons affinity is pretty much a total waste at the start, however it gets alot better. Their jungle start would have been good pre-patch, but post-patch dust requirement make it actually worse than terran or arid.

Even so, they have one HUGE HUGE HUGE HUGE bonus on everyone else... they can terraform to terran (+special terran hydro is insane) before other guys can terraform to desert. This makes them the strongest faction in a peaceful game. After the stacking interest increase tech, their affinity also becomes relevant, 20% interest roughly equates to about a +40-60% system production overall, making it pretty good.

If micromanaged perfectly they have very competitive Industry. The problem is that you have to produce just the right amount of stuff each turn to maximize the benefit of the interest. This is just not realistic in larger games with a timer. At least I can't do it.

ryousei wrote:
Pilgrims need to go to C tier.

Pilgrims affinity is never very relevant. Early on, the wasted industry to build the fleet errant itself is too much a waste, as well as the fact you will really only be moving the n-way fusion plant. With the new fleet upkeep + you depriving the homeworld of pop, you can't afford a sustainable farming on every colony (homeworld would only produce 2 dust per pop since you'd use food exploit to generate pop). Read above for why jungle homeworld is bad now.

Only benefit I can see from it early is to get rich soil anomaly and use your homeworld as a population factory. But I already don't have enough pop on homeworld itself just to keep pumping colony ships for expansion.

Later on, when you have more buildings to transport, you should already have an admin hero of at least lvl 4 with both +15 ind and +20 food, and I also buy out n-way and the +6 to all FIDS (can't remember the name), those together will pretty much mean the fleet errant is useless later as well.

I only kept it in B because of the Jungle homeworld. It is probably C, though.



I don't agree that Jungle is a bad homeworld type. So far I haven't been dust-starved yet.

Igncom1 wrote:
However you have a different opinion, so in the effort of being constructive, what would you say about improving it?

What I could see working is "condensing" the bonus. Instead of progressing like:



4-8-12-16-20-24-28-32-36-40-44-48-52-58-60



it could progress like:



8-16-24-32-40-48-56-60-60-60-60-60-60-60-60

Igncom1 wrote:
(I would also like to apologize if I have been rude to you in the way I have responded before, as I feel I might have been a little rude).

No, problem. I don't think you were.

Xenolith wrote:
It's true that with a high-dust homeworld you will have no trouble with dust even while rushing. On the other hand you get -1 or -2 food per pop and -1 pop total compared to T1 planets, which hurts your rexing capability. Additionaly you'll have absolutely pitiful science until you colonize meaning later Xenobiology and N-Way Fusion Plants. Now, with the increase in ship maintenance I can actually see them being worthy of B-Tier.





If micromanaged perfectly they have very competitive Industry. The problem is that you have to produce just the right amount of stuff each turn to maximize the benefit of the interest. This is just not realistic in larger games with a timer. At least I can't do it.





I only kept it in B because of the Jungle homeworld. It is probably C, though.



I don't agree that Jungle is a bad homeworld type. So far I haven't been dust-starved yet.

Sorry I editted some of my post while you were replying.



Anyways um yea either way though, the automatons would be stronger than even cravers in a peaceful game because of terran terraform.



Well for the arid not being an upside thats why horatios are only still B tier in my opinion and not A lol.

For the pitiful science issue, yea thats true, but I get my early science from ind->sci anyways =). Horatios really need the admin/corp hero to really shine though.



Oh btw, yea dust problems is only gonna be huge if you are rushing or are successfully defending a rush. As far as I know in my normal time-zone for playing, I'm one of the only skillful players that don't rush, so you need that dust against the pros. Against the noobs, any race, except maybe sowers, will do fine.

BlueTemplar wrote:
Of course I did, we're talking about custom factions here, not default Sowers! (Sadly, more ind->food is not something you can change.)

"Doing so well" means rather easily winning an Impossible game (started in 1.0.5) against the AI after I eliminated the Sophons in my arm.

Also I just remembered, you can't take black thumbs anymore yea? Before that sowers mighta been okay, because you can get other bonuses to try even out the shitty food growth.

About the Terran Terraform: Do you get it that much earlier? I mean you still need the resource. If you bee-line Black Hole Mining before getting Non-Baryionic Shielding you save 41 500 research, but that's maybe 12 turns at that point in the game, and your good systems might get capped out on population for quite a while.

Xenolith wrote:
Normal Faction via fervent+optimistic:

+30% Food

+30% Industry

-40% Dust

+30% Science



UE on high taxes:

+8% Industry

+10% Dust



UE pales in comparison.

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Err...so no, +60% industry and +150% dust is a hard amount to simply deny, especially once colony's are done growing.



And its still a 20% industry bonus at 50%.



And really both can be applied to UE systems, so an even greater advantage.

Xenolith wrote:
What I could see working is "condensing" the bonus. Instead of progressing like:



4-8-12-16-20-24-28-32-36-40-44-48-52-58-60



it could progress like:



8-16-24-32-40-48-56-60-60-60-60-60-60-60-60





No, problem. I don't think you were.

That's a quick ramp up with a suitable level off, I like it but will say that without some kind of end road bonus for getting to 100% tax, 65% tax in that model would be a good stopping point for players like me.



Of course it I were to suggest a ending bonus for 100% tax, I would probably go for a gratuitous bonus like 200, so what do you think

How about



8-16-24-32-40-44-48-52-56-60-64-68-72-76-80



It makes early game high taxes better, gives them better military potential in mid-game, possibly makes T3 approval a better beeline than Low-Temp Hydration (unlike every other affinity), and should be enough to close the gap.



Edit:



For Sowers I'd suggest restoring the Ind->Food to 50% as at some point in beta.



How to make Pilgrims viable I have no idea. Reduce the base cost of Fleet Errant and let Master of Illusion and Militarists apply to it?

What kind of turn count are we talking about here? 100? 110?

Yeah, I won a wonder victory yesterday on turn 109.



As for Sowers, by taking N-Way Fusion Plants, Core Mining and Mineral Rich as traits, you can have a blazingly fast start.

BTW, in my current game as Sophons, I found starting by this tech path to get Heavy Isotope Refineries up and running quickly was more beneficial than getting food improvements first.



I didn't know we were also talking about multiplayer here, I suppose is a whole different situation...



Discussing and trying to classify various empire affinities without considering what traits you might take to enhance them is meaningless.



UE affinity doe not give ships more HP, it's a secondary trait. As for their affinity, if you stack the various approval bonuses, you can reach Fervent + Ecstatic while still having a nice Industry bonus easily. (An admin hero can easily get +70 !)

BTW, have you noticed they have a hidden affinity feature : they get more dust on low tax rates and less dust on high tax rates! (which is kind of counter-intuitive if you think that they're supposed to be run with high taxes)

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Approval#Tax_rate

It's not 12 turns.... its alot earlier. I've only rarely reached the point to terraformed to tundra in multiplayer with other factions, but both times i've played automatons I've terraformed to terran.

Even with Sowers? They too have a earlier terraforming : tundra, though the Adamantian pre-requisite makes it a lot less powerful it could be.



I'd rather see Black Thumbs available again for Sowers, maybe a small industry bonus too, or give them 65 starting points like the other factions, or give them 50% ind->science/dust conversion efficiency like before... (though 50% might be a bit high)



Its funny, it would seem stock Sowers were so OP, that they apparently have been nerfed to death (in addition to 50% conversion (that all races had but that was especially good with sowers) they had no -20% science, and they also had Optimal Defense and Crowded Planets). I also suppose their affinity lost quite a few empire points...

Xenolith wrote:
How about



8-16-24-32-40-44-48-52-56-60-64-68-72-76-80



It makes early game high taxes better, gives them better military potential in mid-game, possibly makes T3 approval a better beeline than Low-Temp Hydration (unlike every other affinity), and should be enough to close the gap.

Looks good, want me to suggest it?

BlueTemplar wrote:
Discussing and trying to classify various empire affinities without considering what traits you might take to enhance them is meaningless.

I'm assuming the default pick of Mineral Rich and Optimistic II. For rest of the points I'm assuming whatever fits the affinity or I have seen picked in mp.

BlueTemplar wrote:
As for Sowers, by taking N-Way Fusion Plants, Core Mining and Mineral Rich as traits, you can have a blazingly fast start.

So you have to pay 30 (25 from tech + 5 from affinity having only 60) faction points just to have starting growth comparable to other affinities?

BlueTemplar wrote:
UE affinity doe not give ships more HP, it's a secondary trait. As for their affinity, if you stack the various approval bonuses, you can reach Fervent + Ecstatic while still having a nice Industry bonus easily. (An admin hero can easily get +70 !)

Sure you can. But it is less effective than bee-lining Low Temp Hydration. I don't see how master of propaganda helps with taxes. You should have at least 10 systems at that point.

BlueTemplar wrote:
BTW, have you noticed they have a hidden affinity feature : they get more dust on low tax rates and less dust on high tax rates! (which is kind of counter-intuitive if you think that they're supposed to be run with high taxes)

http://endlessspace.wikia.com/wiki/Approval#Tax_rate

I didn't. That is interesting.

Igncom wrote:
Looks good, want me to suggest it?

Sure.

Some races work well without Optimistic, or even with Pessimistic (especially the Sophons IMHO).



Um, no, with those starting techs you'll have a MUCH faster starting growth than your average faction.



What Low-Temp Hydration has to do with the UE? I'm seeing the UE affinity being most effective when staying and developing only a few very good systems. This strategy of course can't work well until we have a way to abandon/raze systems (because there's no failproof way to deny systems to other players right now).

BlueTemplar wrote:
Some races work well without Optimistic, or even with Pessimistic (especially the Sophons IMHO).

I assume you want to play them at extremely low tax and do a lot of Ind-to-Dust. I'd like to know how you deal with any kind of aggression in that case.

BlueTemplar wrote:
Um, no, with those starting techs you'll have a MUCH faster starting growth than your average faction.

Just tried it in singleplayer, with an above average (admin hero, komatite terran, mineral rich tundra, garden of eden arid) start, and had less pop (<40) than my Amoeba average (46.5) over 20 games at the start of turn 31. The amoeba data is fairly old too - I can do better now.

BlueTemplar wrote:
What Low-Temp Hydration has to do with the UE? I'm seeing the UE affinity being most effective when staying and developing only a few very good systems. This strategy of course can't work well until we have a way to abandon/raze systems (because there's no failproof way to deny systems to other players right now).

That doesn't really work in multiplayer, because other players will have core high quality systems as well - and a lot of mediocre systems making their total fids higher than yours. I thought T3 approval was a 7500 research tech, but it's just 4000. Forget what I said about Low-Temp Hydration.

- No Ind to Dust required (except maybe a bit in the start), just a lot of commerce. It looks like I might be able to beat Endless AI's with this setup (without even stealing stuff from them).



- Did you do 20 games too with the Sowers with various empire trait combinations? High pop is nice, but what about the IDS? Otherwise it seems pretty good for a faction you don't seem to play often.



- Yes, but they won't have your industry and dust bonus, and it seems this setup would allow you to have a huge military quickly. The idea would be not to grow faster than your opponents, but force them to grow slower. Anyway, at least some testing is needed, though I'm not sure if blockading a system indefinitely (as you're rather forced now with this strategy) would work well.

If only you could add the Piligrim affinity to this strategy! You could have a raiding fleet stealing improvements from enemy systems and bringing them to yours, or relocate to a system with more approval when unlocking new luxury resources...