Just something I want to throw out there: Affinity balance necessarily precedes faction trait balance. When people make custom factions, if one affinity is much stronger than the others, then that is what will always be picked. Sophons, Cravers, and horatio currently have the strongest affinities from an MP point of view.



It is also the case that if you want to balance the faction traits in terms of point values AND also have balanced premade factions, that affinities also must be balanced.

Well you can always glass cannon the enemy to a standstill while you win one of the peaceful victory's.

I think "Optimal Structure" is completely overpowered and way too cheap.

Imagine you are Pilgrims and someone with Optimal Structure spawns near you. It is basicly auto-lose, he can beat the frell out of you as much as he wants with a 50% tonnage advantage.

Optimal Structure is THE omnipotent fleet-trait for only 20 points... Theres no reason not to take it, no matter what your race is made of.



Not sure about the other traits - most of it seems okay.

I'd prefer it if it just made the techs for colonisation available much earlier. Tundra/Arctic and Arid/Desert in one Tech, then Barren/Lava replacing the position of Desert/Arctic respectively. Asteroid/Gas Giant replacing Lava/Barren etc.



Just make them untradeable (or just remove tech trading altogether).

K__ wrote:
Tolerant was probably the trait that most excited me AND disappointed me the most.



Colonizing planets early just hits you with crippling Approval penalties before you have the tech to compensate for them, and the FIDS penalty is just insult to injury when you consider that planets requiring higher tech give out less FIDS. At best, you can grab a resource monopoly early at the cost of a system going sour with the Approval penalties, but that's a very harsh trade-off.



Tolerant should give a flat Approval bonus for colonized worlds equal to their normal penalty, no FIDS penalty, and maybe a small FIDS bonus if you have the correct tech.

I both agree and disagree; the implementation is lacking and currently taking it for anything but jokes and giggles is insane, but having the trait turn approval penalties into approval benefits would be a remarkably poor design decision: You'd end up with planets that provided less approval after having been successfully terraformed to more hospitable planets! (Moreover, it doesn't make all that much sense. It is one thing to be more tolerant and able to withstand harsh conditions, quite another to actually like it and feel better under such circumstances! And it would be even more weird if it didn't hinder people at all not to have examined how to set up livable conditions via colonisation, as you suggest with the "no FIDS penalty")



Also, your "planets requiring higher techs give out less FIDS" just isn't true. The four highest-grossing FIDS planets are Asteroids and the three Gas Giants, all of which would be AWESOME to colonise without a FIDS penalty. Heck, even with a 50% penalty they have higher FIDS than Lava or Barren. The planets that are the hardest to colonise are incredibly specialized, but they are the best at providing raw FIDS. It is the middle tier planets that have lower FIDS.



Something considerably more in the vein of the current implementation (and, presumably, design intent - though it is always dangerous to guess at that!) would be to say that "if people are more tolerant with regards to living conditions in one way (being able to deal with it without extensive preparation or knowledge), they might also be in other ways (hating suboptimal living conditions less)":



Level 1:-50% planet FIDS until corresponding tech is known, planet is affected only 50% by negative approval from class and anomaly, permits colonisation of all planets.

Level 2:-25% planet FIDS until corresponding tech is known, planet is affected only 25% by negative approval from class and anomaly, permits colonisation of all planets.



Examples: (I'll assume rounding down where necessary)

• A class 1 planet with a +10 anomaly (Capp=0, Aapp=0) would give 10 approval for 0/2, 1/2, and 2/2 since Tolerant only affects negative modifier.
• A class 1 planet without an anomaly (Capp=0, Aapp=0) would give 0 approval for 0/2, 1/2, and 2/2.
• A class 3 planet without an anomaly (Capp=-10, Aapp=0) would give -10 for 0/2, -5 for 1/2, and -3 for 2/2.
• A class 4 planet with a +10 anamoly (Capp=-15, Aapp=10) would give -5 for 0/2, +2 for 1/2, and +6 for 2/2.
• A class 5 with a -10 anomaly (Capp=-20, Aapp=-10) would give -30 for 0/2, -15 for 1/2, -8 for 2/2.

Explanation for the class 4 example: The Aaap is positive, so it is unaffected by Tolerant and the full +10 is applied; Only the Capp is negative and hence affected by Tolerant in this example (to -15, -8, -4).





With such a setup you get the whole shebang of colonisation of otherwise uncolonisable real estate, easier colonisation and life in inhospitable place regardless of whether it is inhospitable because of planet type or anomalies, AND all the existing game mechanics for improving planets (research, terraforming, anomaly repair) remaining beneficial in every way they were before.

This would be the thread to do that.

I just thought of a negative trait, which is a bit weird:



Childrens are expensive: Parents often spend a lot of money in entertainment for their children. Because of this, people often have, at most, only 2 children, so, population growth is considerably diminished.



This idea is a little weird, because I thought very little in it, but it's a bit interesting.

Eternal War: I don't think this is that great of a trait, since it prevents cheap Approval from Naive. Still, there's not much reason to be at peace with the AI apart from shaking them down for tech.



Trade: There is a fundamental problem with balancing the current trade system, which is that it's much more powerful in 8-empire games than 2-empire games. I suggest something like adding "domestic" trade routes and decreasing income per route to compensate.



Also, more opinions and analysis in the form of a guide: /#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14023-optimizing-custom-factions

Optimistic would not be so great if the damn design of the game was not so screwed up that we get penalized for playing on large/huge maps. The game needs to take into account galaxy size when determining expansion disapproval.



Legendary Heroes is only good because heroes are so OP as to be silly. I would love a MP option to not allow them.





Honest, your not going to have good factions until you redesign the system so that races can have different bonus/penalty values for different planet types. Where the effects of anomalies and positive traits on each planet is subject to a race's preference. As in, look at MOO2. You cannot introduce a silicoid race in this game because all races treat planets the same. All are bumpy headed Star Trek aliens. Look to that game for inspiration.

My Opinons in Bold

Meedoc wrote:
Hello fellow players!



Must Have:

Optimistic:

Help a lot to expand in early game

Help to raise tax early which is especially good for UE Affinity



For sure. Optimistic is a very important trait as it allows for more fevrent systems without dipping into negative dust.



Eternal War

Alliance are useless if you don't build yourself for trade. Moreover, you can use Blockade Breaker to compensate the absence of alliance.



Depends on your playstyle. Even my aggression is heavily mixed with diplomacy, and I find losing out on being able to trade tech, dust, resouces and systems a big pain for my diplomatic playstyle. Plus eternal war is a giant red flag to all other players.



Scientists

Give a useful bonus from the start to the end of the game.



Depending on your build, I wholeheartedly agree.



Entrepreneurs

Give a useful bonus from the start to the end of the game.



No way. I consider all dust traits useless due to the way dust is produced. Long story short, dust production is effected by tax rate, with a low tax rate giving a negative to dust produced. I normally roll with a low tax rate, so this is not a must have for me



Crowded planet:

A pretty nice bonus event at level 1



Maybe. But it really only becomes useful late game, and it only effects small and medium planets. It's defintly a maybe for me, especially considering it's point cost.



Cloning:

Really useful in early game



Super useful! This combined with growth rate allows you to get mad population, letting you got tons of FIDS. This is a definte must have if you are focusing on population.



Blockade Breakers:

Can create one of the most powerful combo, especially with Amoeba's affinity



Defintly. If you intend on using trade routes, blockade breakers is a must. Not only does it let you establish trade routes without peace, but when the galaxy begins going to war, you won't lose a single route over lost peace deals.



Spray'n Pray:

Can offer extra points for a little disadvantage



Little disadvantage? The problem I have with this is that it is a -15% accuracy negative that cannot be fixed with better tech or new parts. I admit I have not used Spray'n Pray much, but I would not roll with this.



Traits increasing ship's weight capacity:

It's significantly better than the other combat-based traits because an extra few guns will always be better than a marginal increase in accuracy or health. Not only that, but this trait is vastly more flexible than the others



True, at the same time though, more guns simply means the ship is going to cost more. As such, production is a major bottleneck. This means you get the same amount of firepower, just with fewer ships. Granted you could argue that this helps with retrofitting, but I don't think it's worth it.



Master of Destruction

Can be used to build weapon-focus ships for nothing and even more if combined with Militaristic.



For sure. This is a must have if you intend on going military heavy.



Legendary Heores

Allow to have and administrator Lvl 3 turn 2, giving a flat bonus of 15 industry.



Without a doubt. Although this bonus is less useful by mid game, it makes the early game so much faster, letting your empire get a running start.



Dust impaired:

Double the cost of hero's ability which worse it for -4 points



Free points really. Even with dust impared, the dust costs aren't terrible.



Sloppy Sawbones:

+100% Healing cost on Hero is well worth the -6 points it gives

It's easy to avoid injured heroes.



Indeed it is. Once again, free points.



Useless:

All the military tech:

They are outdone by a military Hero



No way. Although heros are powerful, they don't overpower all military traits.



Technologies:

Don't help the player in the long run.



Agreed. A giant waste of points, only useful for ridiculous rush plays.



Tolerant:

Regarding the cost, the approval and FIDS bonus are too high.



Yup. Tolerant is really two negatives. You not only lose out on FIDS, but your approval is horrible.

Further thoughts:



Miliarists:

Must Have

A very important trait. Not only does it help military, but it also helps make colony ships cheaper.



Masters of Illusion:

Maybe

A useful trait for making colony ships cheaper, but it loses some value past the early game.



Fragile Hulls:

Must Have

In my experience, it is not the hull of a ship that keeps it alive, rather it is the defense mods. Because of this, I find hull strength to be useless and use Fragile Hulls for free points.



Spendthrifts:

Must Have

This once again goes back to the fact that dust is effected by tax rate. As such, I use Ind-Dust conversion for dust Income, which spendthrifts does not effect. Because of this, I find Spendthirfts to be free points.



Growth Plan + Cloning:

MUST HAVE

I realize that these are two traits, but when combined, they provide massive amounts of population, which produce massive amounts of FIDS. By far most powerful combination in the game in my opinon.

My take on everything so far said.

Meedoc wrote:
Hello fellow players!



We're constantly working on the balancing of the game and I need your opinion regarding the faction traits! We want to improve the dynamic of the custom factions and avoid to have "pre-selected" traits.

Could you tell me which traits you consider as a MUST HAVE for your custom factions? And why? It can be either a positive or a negative one.



In the other hand, are there traits you find totally useless? And why?



Thanks for your cooperation!





P.S.: I'm going to update the list in order to gather your opinion in the first post.



Must Have:

Optimistic:

Help a lot to expand in early game

Help to raise tax early which is especially good for UE Affinity

Agree that the Trait is good however,I think it is far more useful for lowering taxes and allowing greater expansion.



Eternal War

Alliance are useless if you don't build yourself for trade. Moreover, you can use Blockade Breaker to compensate the absence of alliance.

This is not entirely true, allies can be very useful if people bother actually helping each other destroy threats and defend each other. The two common problems are that defense is much harder than offense and that human players seem to want to ally and then not actually support their allies.



Scientists

Give a useful bonus from the start to the end of the game.

Agree



Entrepreneurs

Give a useful bonus from the start to the end of the game.

Disagree, dust is not as useful as any other FIDS in this game because it is much more expensive to buyout than it is build, also because population growth increases all FIDS and finally because how taxes work in that you only get a percentage of your dust output and increasing said percentage reduces all other FIDS.



Crowded planet:

A pretty nice bonus event at level 1

Agree, it can be useful



Cloning:

Really useful in early game'

Disagree, for what it gives it is far to expensive if teh first level of cloning gave +1 to all types of planets it would be worth the points.



Blockade Breakers:

Can create one of the most powerful combo, especially with Amoeba's affinity

I think its okay, but because this game favors military play and military play necessitates you taking over systems I don't think its as powerful as some think.





Spray'n Pray:

Can offer extra points for a little disadvantage

Completely Disagree, its definitely not worth the points if you ever plan on doing any combat other than possibly with missiles, and if you plan on focusing on missiles you pigeonhole yourself making defending versus yourself very easy.



Traits increasing ship's weight capacity:

It's significantly better than the other combat-based traits because an extra few guns will always be better than a marginal increase in accuracy or health. Not only that, but this trait is vastly more flexible than the others

Not Sure





Master of Destruction

Can be used to build weapon-focus ships for nothing and even more if combined with Militaristic.

Obviously Agree



Legendary Heores

Allow to have and administrator Lvl 3 turn 2, giving a flat bonus of 15 industry.

Agree



Useless:

All the military tech:

They are outdone by a military Hero

Do not agree with this point, it would only be valid if 10 points got you another starting hero that was military.



Dust impaired:

Double the cost of hero's ability which worse it for -4 points

Why is this in this category if endless war is in the above category then this should be as well as it is a must have disadvantage.



Sloppy Sawbones:

+100% Healing cost on Hero is well worth the -6 points it gives

It's easy to avoid injured heroes.

Why is this in this category if endless war is in the above category then this should be as well as it is a must have disadvantage.



Technologies:

Don't help the player in the long run.

Agree, mostly, see my point below.



Tolerant:

Regarding the cost, the approval and FIDS bonus are too high.

Agree, I would also like to add about the only useful aspect of tech traits is that for 25 points you can get "Arid Epigenetics" and "Compact Fusion Reactors" which together give you +2 movements and access to many systems with no FIDS reduction, in addition you are much closer to wormhole tech.This is about the only points spent towards tech that is possibly worth the cost and only because in comparison it is far cheaper than Tolerant, with arguably a better effect.

Very surprised no one has mentioned growth yet as for the points it is probably one of the best traits because:



+ -> + opulation: -> +



No other trait increases every FIDS at a percentage level, it would be worth taking if it was double the cost it is now.

I don't play multiplayer, but I actually like the combat bonuses. I like to collect as many admin and corp heroes as possible, so unless none are available I never go for the admiral heroes. The combat bonuses help make up for that on every single fleet instead of only a few.



I always take sloppy sawbones and dust impaired since they don't impact me at all. I don't find detection radius to be that useful in general, so I never take meticulous analysis which increases it.

Bonjour!



I'd like to see one that reduces the time it takes for an outpost to become part of your empire. From 30 turns to somewhere between 25 and 20. Would be nice to combine that with Stellar Guardians (+4 influence area).



Feeble Warriors - put this in the category of Dust Impaired and Sloppy Sawbones. This doesn't affect gameplay much, and almost everyone takes the hit to get a bonus on something else. This is partly because there is a 4 turn minimum on invasion, and mid to late game, there will be plenty of fleet MP to go around so that even factions without feeble warriors can be invaded in 4 turns quite easily.

Thanks for your answers! I just compiled what were said in the first post. There are a lot of interesting point of view here! It will really help to balance the costs and effects of the traits!



Thank you again, and keep going with your opinion =)

Nycidian wrote:
One of the biggest problem in ES is the fact that is is so much easier to dominate using military than is is to defend. This is inherent in how the combat system works, it also is magnified by the expense of learning defensive tech and finally the fact the "Masters Of Destruction" has no counterweight Trait and is very cheap for what it does.



Inherent Combat Problem



People always refer to the combat system as rock paper scissors, but it is not, if it were RPS then A attack would counter B attack would counter C attack would counter A attack. Notice the previous does not mention defenses. With RPS you have an equal chance of a win a loss or a tie. With the current system if they use defenses you have a 2/3 chance to completely bypass the defense chosen by continually changing what offense you use. This means that if they choose to use defenses by weight it is beyond other factors only has 33% effectiveness compared to 66% percent effectiveness of weapons. This does not take into account any other factors, but when you add in the next two factors it magnifies this problem.



Tech Tree Cost



The problem with defenses in the tech tree is often the only thing you get from research is defense. Many times in the Military Tech Tree to progress you must choose between a weapon tech or a defense tech. The problem with this is weapons solely by themselves can win fights, you can build a offense only ship and succeed. This is not true for a defense only ship the best outcome for a defense only ship is too tie. From a game theory perspective if given the choice between a weapon tech and a defense tech it will always be preferable to take the weapon tech. This means over half the defensive tech is too expensive too learn because of opportunity costs.



Masters of Destruction



Taking all the above into account you then add in the Trait MOD, this trait makes it ridiculously cheap to produce all weapon ships. to the point with Militaristic that you can mass produce ships so cheap you can throw them away. This by itself is bad but coupled with the above and the fact that there is no defensive version. You make a game that already favors attack that much more weighted against defense and peace.







In short MOD is Broke and a must have Trait.

These are good points. I feel the most interesting way to balance this would be to have almost all weapon and invasion modules past 1st tier require a strategic resource while not requiring any strategic resources for defensive or armor modules. This would not only balance out combat more, but it would make competition for resources much more interesting.

So far, granted farely new player(IE only 8 games into it), but the custom traits are pretty good. Would like to eventually see more, but for a good start I like it. One thing that I would also like to see would be a custom portrait for it. But thus far, I think it is a good jump out the gate.

Aureus wrote:
Positive Traits:

Negative Traits:

Sloppy Sawbones: To be honest, I've never actually had a Hero injured yet let alone one who needs to be healed. Even then, a slightly raised price is hardly equal to large amount of points you get to spend on other traits.



Dust Impaired: Similar to the above, Dust-related combat actions are a rarity for me to even see let alone use mostly because I think nearly everyone kits out their Heroes as administrators and not as admirals.

Agreed, there is literally no reason to ever not take these. The effects are so trivial they're basically free points.



e: Also seconding Tolerent being kind of useless. And plugging my Random Starter Tech suggestion.

Tolerant is a useless trait even for the Sower Affinity. The large unhappiness penalties of these kinds of planets combined with the 50/25% FIDS reduction makes colonizing these planets counter productive early on. Especially when you consider how many points are taken up by this trait (20/40 if memory serves). Get rid of or significantly reduce the FIDS reduction and it might be workable in a Sower affinity faction.

As the game is all about having more/better ships in mid/late game I consider the following traits as must have:

Militarists - faster ship building

Legendary Heros - gives you a significant head start especially when you have an admin

Optimistic - stabilizes early expansion



A negatice trait I always pick :

sloppy sawbones - I don`t expect my hero to die.



The rest depends on the played faction.



In my opinion useless traits:

Any technology UNLESS you push for early destroyers and early war.

Tolerant - its too expensive for what it bringsto your game

Military - outdone by hero abilities, better science

Dust impaired and sloppy sawbones. They are too minor not to take all the time.