Should Kinetics be Boosted

DeamonStorm

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 12:33:00 PM

Its been a while for me, so here is my first post back.

I rarely use kinetics. I might have one or two on a ship, this includes Dreadnaughts.

Do kinetics need serious attention? If so, what can be done to make them a viable combat option?

Nomas

Yussho

Nomas

Yussho

28 300g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 12:55:28 PM

To make them viable you need to reach 3d melee phase. I used to rarely enter melee phase on previous versions. On my last game yesterday i ve reached melee a lot of times and kinetics did a lot of damage (i believe so since in melee my fleet destroyed everything. And my ships had plenty of missiles and lasers too). I ll do some more testing and in higher difficulty lvls

maur4395

Newcomer

maur4395

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 3:38:51 PM

Each weapon has a effective range. Long range missles are the most effective, medium lasers are, melee kinetics are. As ships get upgraded more, you will reach melee phase more often.

Midir

Old Newcomer

Midir

Old Newcomer

10 500g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 3:54:37 PM

I've tried making heavily flak'd and armoured ships to get into melee more often, but it seems like missiles are often the way to go regardless, not sure if kinetics need to be buffed per se, but maybe more counterplay for missiles?

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 4:29:13 PM

Its their accuracy that's the problem because they do more damage then any other weapon type overall.

A increase of the accuracy is in order to retain it as a effective back up weapon.

(Logically this makes no sense as beams should be short range and kinetics medium range. Make beams decrease in damage over the rounds rather then accuracy, and let missiles and kinetics keep average accuracy levels.)

ThatMG

Newcomer

ThatMG

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 4:44:44 PM

wrong use snipers and lots of them they are good

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Dec 4, 2012, 4:58:17 PM

Or you know, don't and use even less beams.

So really there is no correct answer, just more optimal ones.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

38 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 5, 2012, 2:14:13 AM

ThatMG wrote:
wrong use snipers and lots of them they are good

Unfortunately, Sniper plays in to Beams better than Kinetics. As of right now, Kinetics are the worst weapon class in the game, the OP is correct. Beams are pretty awesome in all phases, they don't have one phase where they're awful, unlike Missiles in 3rd and Kinetics in 1st. Kinetics are easy to deflect, unlike Missiles which can kill quite easily. And lastly, Kinetics only really work well in the final phase. Meaning, you have to accept that you're going to take a lot of damage before dealing much of your own.

There is simply no situation where Kinetics aren't hopelessly outdone by Beam and Missile.

vonbron

Newcomer

vonbron

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 5, 2012, 3:07:36 AM

I feel like it is not to useful becuase the enimys always die before the melee phase

Nomas

Yussho

Nomas

Yussho

28 300g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 5, 2012, 10:54:31 AM

Combat in general seems to need an entire add-on for a complete lifting.

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Dec 5, 2012, 3:54:36 PM

Kinetics might however be useful in the late game when their damage per shot and salvo number increases dramatically.

Late game dreads with kinetic weapons could turn the tide against enemy's who haven't bothered to defend against them.

Late game kinetics do more damage then any other type of weapon, period, it's just hitting targets that's their problem.

A increase of accuracy in the medium and melee phases would make Kinetics a end all weapon for the late game super tanks, but not really before.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

38 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 5, 2012, 11:13:38 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
Kinetics might however be useful in the late game when their damage per shot and salvo number increases dramatically.

Late game dreads with kinetic weapons could turn the tide against enemy's who haven't bothered to defend against them.

Late game kinetics do more damage then any other type of weapon, period, it's just hitting targets that's their problem.

A increase of accuracy in the medium and melee phases would make Kinetics a end all weapon for the late game super tanks, but not really before.

The only problem is that if you're going for balls-out damage, Missiles do the trick better. If you're going for consistent damage, beams do it better. Yes, Kinetics do the most damage per salvo, but deflectors will shove off most of that salvo, and plenty of shots will miss.

Mr.Spartan126

Old Survivor

Mr.Spartan126

Old Survivor

12 400g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 10, 2012, 3:10:29 PM

Kinetics are fine the way they are because they just are. Really.

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Dec 10, 2012, 5:19:28 PM

I dunno, their horrific accuracy means that even in medium and melee ranges, beams still out compete them.

Xanoth

Newcomer

Xanoth

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 10, 2012, 9:47:38 PM

I honestly think they can be viable, the problem over all combat as a whole. It's often too easy to defend against everything, especially with a good hero and level 5+ ships. The balance just feels a little off and the game isn't designed around the more traditional pikemen, cavalry, archers formation combat. So you're generally left trying to defend against everything and focus all your damage on one thing. Which means focusing research to minimise cost and beam gives an advantage early in the game due to it's defensive module to counter it so deeper than all others. After that initial investment it's generally best to stick with it, good accuracy in all phases, not as easily countered with cards either. Kinetic are just as viable, especially if the enemy doesn't defend against them. Missiles however I find most easy to counter, camouflage card in phase 1, who cares after that missiles hardly hit and those that do are even easier to intercept leaving you to go full offence or repair up.

VIPDigitalhawk96

Mirror

継続は力なり。 (Keizoku wa chikara nari) Perseverance is power.

VIPDigitalhawk96

Mirror

32 800g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 10, 2012, 10:33:56 PM

Something feels like it needs a slight bump somewhere. I haven't been able to do much play testing myself however, and i plan to use kinetics a lot when i do get back. And make "pew pew" and "dakka dakka" noises when i fire off my hail of fire.

frakc

Newcomer

frakc

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 1:40:12 AM

(Logically this makes no sense as beams should be short range and kinetics medium range. Make beams decrease in damage over the rounds rather then accuracy, and let missiles and kinetics keep average accuracy levels.)

There is nothing exapte nebulas and solid objects that can decrealy efective range of beams in space, so beams efectevly has infinite range. Kinetics generaly too, but there are more effects that affects kinetic projectiles. (just a lesson of physics)

Kinetic is one of the strongest weapons in game, it has outstanding cards which othre weaons does not have. Card +25 criticals efectifly means ingnoring of an foe armor. Also kinetics always shoots first and reaches first. That mean you can destroy enemy beam/rocket orientated ship BEFORE it will shoot second time.

Dont forget that missailes can miss by themself

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 1:56:55 AM

frakc wrote:
There is nothing exapte nebulas and solid objects that can decrealy efective range of beams in space, so beams efectevly has infinite range. Kinetics generaly too, but there are more effects that affects kinetic projectiles. (just a lesson of physics)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-cube_law and this is ignoring the fact that beam weapons in ES aren't really light based, as in, they have mass.

Most of the beams in ES are a type of plasma weapon, so while a beam might not decease in power over distance, don't expect an enemy to sit still enough for them to get hit by a weapon that moves slower then the kinetic weapons.

And considering the speed of kinetic weapons, the things that would affect a weapon that fires accelerated mass is not really a concern.

(A little counter lession, buddy.)

Kinetic is one of the strongest weapons in game, it has outstanding cards which othre weaons does not have. Card +25 criticals efectifly means ingnoring of an foe armor. Also kinetics always shoots first and reaches first. That mean you can destroy enemy beam/rocket orientated ship BEFORE it will shoot second time.

Kinetic weapons on paper have more then 4 times the damage of missiles by the late game, this is true.

However beams also get a good card for improving it's damage.

and with kinetic weapons having a 20% hit rate at long range, and 40% at medium range, those cards and extra damage aren't doing you any favors, especially against enemy deflectors that don't adsorb enemy damage, or mitigate it, they remove the very shells being sot against it, preventing damage altogether.

Never ever will a kinetic ship kill a beam ship before the late game, and even then it would be a tie.

Dont forget that missailes can miss by themself

90% long 70% medium 40% melee are not bad odds if you ask me, especially compared to beam 50% long 90% medium 70% melee and diffidently to kinetic 20% long 40% medium 90% melee.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

38 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 3:59:48 AM

Yeah, exactly as igncom1 said, if you want to shoot fairly well in every phase, you go beam. If you want to obliterate their whole fleet in phase one, you go missile.

If you want to lose, you go kinetic.

arithon

Newcomer

arithon

Newcomer

12 years ago

Dec 11, 2012, 8:11:25 PM

I think the solution is to make Kinetics a bit more accurate or increase HP of ships again so there is more of a chance that battles last into the melee phase.