I use kinetics more often then most other weapons and dont seem to be having a feeling of being under powered. It must all be up to how well teched you are to the other person.

One major problem with kinetics I haven't seen mentioned is when two fleets with heroes face off. Assume two opposing heroes balanced in offense and defense. Defense increases beam damage absorbed, while offense increases beam damage dealt, so on average the same number of beam hits should get through, and those that get through do more damage. Defense increases interception accuracy, while offense increases interception evasion and damage. I'm not sure how interception accuracy and evasion work, but I'm guessing approximately the same number of missles get through, and those that get through do more damage. However, defense increases the number of projectiles deflected, while offense does not increase the number fired, only damage. Fewer shots will get through.

There Good if you build correct, e.g using snipers, Using optimal defence / the module that does the same, Late tech you can get the 8% feet Module and put them on crusiers and pump them in your fleets like the wazoo. With preferably dreads stocked up on them.



using extra health and fleet healing so you can survive the first phases.



You have to think and support your fleets more rather than beams and missile where you just stick 10-20 on a ship and your done.



Yes they are the worst out the 3 but their not totally worthless.



Also I have killed fleets in the first 2 phases using Kinetics so the thing about phases is moot.

Yes, I think in the long range phase, kinetics need to move up to 30% accuracy. (Perhaps missiles the same for short)

It really sounds like kinetics could use some modifications, perhaps just some small buffs of some sort. However, to me it does sound like you could just use it on more defense-focused vessels, with heal and support, to good effect in mid to late game. Also, it seems like they would still provide good support in fleets which primarily used beams and missiles, but put kinetics on armored support vessels in order to diversify and punish enemies who ignore deflectors.



Another thought I had was.. what if there was an additional card made for kinetics. This card might reduce the volume of kinetics attacks, but greatly increase its accuracy for that turn. Essentially a 'snipe' card, useful for the 'long range' phase. You would not shoot as many times, but your shots would have a good chance of hitting in that distance. It also might provide some sort of minor defensive bonus (arguable as ship energy or efforts being focused on repair or defense rather than shooting a whole bunch). this would at least give you the potential to do some sort of damage in the first phase, but is also predictable and thus counterable.

Romeo is talking with sense...



To make his shotgun comparison clearer...



In FPS games we have

Sniper Rifles

Automatic Rifles

Shotguns



In ES it corresponds to:

Missiles

Beams

Kinetics



Now imagine that you are playing an FPS game that applies the 3 round combat system of ES.

You have a shotgun. You start running at the enemy. Before you get the actual chance of using your shotgun to 100% efficiency, you first have to get shot by a sniper and then take a full salvo from an automatic rifle.

Chances of survival and actual usage of your shotgun?

Close to nothing.

I am yet to vote in this particular poll as im torn when asked about kinetics. Right now both my destroyer and cruiser class ships are bristling with them (as well as are fitted with the top class shields and flak... for obvious reasons). Kinetics are a very specialized weapon. You cant expect them to be able to do much in long range but if you have enough of them - theyre able to severely dent the opposing fleet, even in medium range. In close range it turns into a fireworks show... I guess instead of buffing kinetics we could try to nerf beams? They seem to be extremely good even at long range (which is not where they should shine). Beam accuracy is higher than kinetics accuracy at distances they do not cover (short/long). Why not start there?



As a side note completely unrelated to this poll - you can try going for a all kinetics fleet. The only thing the opposition can do against it is either drop the short circuit card or the deflector buff... which narrows your choice of cards needed to counter them. Seems like a win/win scenario to me. Getting the sniper trait helps here aswell (due to fixing the difference of effectiveness of kinetic vs beam weapons).

I still don't get how people can say kinetics are "ok" becuase they do a lot of damage in close range.



Maybe the AI isn't smart enough to abuse it, but any decent human should see that you're using kinetics, build some alpha strike missile ships, and then retreat every 2nd phase(or offensive retreat if he feels risky). He gets at least one full salvo for basically free, and then runs away and there's nothing the kinetics players can do to stop it. The missile player should take next to no damage for this. Heck you can even use lasers.



This even applies on mixed ships. If the opponent runs 1/3 of his offense on kinetics, then you shouldn't EVER build kinetics on your ship, and should just focus on long range. He wastes a ton of firepower inefficiently while you maximize long range damage. It doesn't work in reverse becuase



Unless you nerf retreat, kinetics will NEVER be a threat in human games outside of some VERY unique scenarios.



I think at the very least(barring a serious overhaul to the weapon systems...which i hope one day comes) kinetics should be much cheaper to research.

If use use missiles then you have to be there for the entire phase or the missiles won't get there in time.



And kinetics aren't a threat till the late game, when kinetic defenses and sheer mass of salvos fired make them the most efficient weapon in the game.



The problem is their accuracy, they need at last a 10% boost in all areas.

Igncom1 wrote:
If use use missiles then you have to be there for the entire phase or the missiles won't get there in time.



And kinetics aren't a threat till the late game, when kinetic defenses and sheer mass of salvos fired make them the most efficient weapon in the game.



The problem is their accuracy, they need at last a 10% boost in all areas.

Long range phase- I fire missiles or lasers. You fire kinetics. I do more damage either way(significantly).

Medium range phase- I retreat or aggressive retreat(if i have lasers).



Either way I essentially get a free combat every single time. With a much smaller fleet you can tear apart fleets relying on kinetics due to the awful long range accuracy and escape before they get to do any significant damage.



If they have enough of an advantage that they're doing significant damage at long range then you've likely already lost. And if their tech was in any other weapon they'd likely be doing better. No other weapon can be countered as badly by retreat.

Eji1700 wrote:
Long range phase- I fire missiles or lasers. You fire kinetics. I do more damage either way(significantly).

Medium range phase- I retreat or aggressive retreat(if i have lasers).



Either way I essentially get a free combat every single time. With a much smaller fleet you can tear apart fleets relying on kinetics due to the awful long range accuracy and escape before they get to do any significant damage.



If they have enough of an advantage that they're doing significant damage at long range then you've likely already lost. And if their tech was in any other weapon they'd likely be doing better. No other weapon can be countered as badly by retreat.

Then don't use kinetics then, because kinetics are a late game specialty weapon.



And your tactics won't last long against a actual player who isn't stupidly going for 1 type of weapon only.

Igncom1 wrote:
Then don't use kinetics then, because kinetics are a late game specialty weapon.



And your tactics won't last long against a actual player who isn't stupidly going for 1 type of weapon only.

It's a simplified example. Being able to dodge a portion of the opposing fleets DPS is a huge issue. No human player should ever really get kinetics at all because it's wasted space(the only purpose for the tech is missile defense). Lasers/missiles/added defenses are almost always going to pay off better. This isn't good balance.

Kinetics are a late medium to end game weapon as it is now. As such, they work well...



As I see it, the problem is to make them more effective in early to middle game... why not increase their power at the start, in first half of the top tech tree, say beginning with a 40% increase, and going down 10% for each new weapon?



This would make them viable at the beginning of the game, providing, of course, that the ship they are on is adequately defended.

Kinetics should be the weapon of the melee, but that means a simple thing:

In melee, they should absolutely murder out anything.

I'm all for different tactics, and rather than just buff kinetics damage/accuracy in long-range, i would:

Get accuracy of long-range down to 5%

Medium range down to 10%

Damage upscaled by a straight 4x.

On that basis, it becomes viable to tank the hell out of a fleet and arm it with kinetics, rewarding a specialized playstyle.



Or, just nerf beams. Flak seems a bit too efficient, too (especially in spamming low-tech flak)

Flak is supposed to be highly efficient.



Beams do the least damage out of all the weapons, their strength is accuracy making them excellent in the early game, shields are still highly effective against them.



Defectors however don't shape up against kinetics, if you can make it to medium range or melee (Possible if you don't use the small ships and actually tech to at least the 3rd ring of defenses) then a properly leveled up kinetic weapon is weight for weight the best weapon in the game.

Aureon wrote:
Kinetics should be the weapon of the melee, but that means a simple thing:

In melee, they should absolutely murder out anything.

I'm all for different tactics, and rather than just buff kinetics damage/accuracy in long-range, i would:

Get accuracy of long-range down to 5%

Medium range down to 10%

Damage upscaled by a straight 4x.

On that basis, it becomes viable to tank the hell out of a fleet and arm it with kinetics, rewarding a specialized playstyle.



Or, just nerf beams. Flak seems a bit too efficient, too (especially in spamming low-tech flak)

And thy don't need the damage upgrade considering the amount of shots they fire, once you start to get above 20 per module the amount of shots you fire can be overwhelming.

It is painfully obvious that kinetics need to get in close to do any reasonable damage and i dont understand half of the arguing here. If you have trouble doing an all kinetic fleet - get shields and flak, as many as you can. Fill the rest with kinetics and watch the fireworks. For a fact i know that dropping overlock time and time again counters any aggressive retreat your opponent may abuse as well as not really doing anything to me when i throw it (-20% missile defense efficiency? Each phase is comprised of four rounds - you will be toast before the missiles reach the target [dueto40%damageboost] and the ones that do wont make it through the flak). As said by Ign - third tier and onward kinetics literally melt everything. Even at long range. Which is kinda silly and needs a lot of balancing (stronger early game and somewhat less powerful late game).

Kinetics just need an overall accuracy boost, then we can get a proper RPS system of



Kinetics beat, missiles beat, beams beat, kinetics.

Pietrak wrote:
Now imagine that you are playing an FPS game that applies the 3 round combat system of ES.

You have a shotgun. You start running at the enemy. Before you get the actual chance of using your shotgun to 100% efficiency, you first have to get shot by a sniper and then take a full salvo from an automatic rifle.

Chances of survival and actual usage of your shotgun?

Close to nothing.

Yeah, the problem is that in ES, the formations are static - more "realistically", kinetic ships would try to dash into melee range, missile barges would try to hang behind. That does not happen whatsoever in ES (for obvious reason). There needs to be some way to simulate this. An example would be a ship module that gives a ship an accuracy boost for kinetics, but makes it more vulnerable to them, too (to simulate dashing forward) - or take ship speed into account for dodging fire & firing weapons (fast ships are less vulnerable to missiles, more so to kinetics etc.).

...and this starts yet another problem ES does not cover. Detailed commands for fleets and fleet formations. If i went for an all kinetic fleet setup - i would (almost) always choose a wall formation (where everything can fire without being obstructed by friendly targets) and give the fleet an order to get in close (which - i would imagine - would involve starting the fight either in medium range or in long range but skipped medium range altogether to imitate the closure speed of ships). There lies another bunch of problems related with how would those commands interfere with other fleets commands since a fleet thats based around missiles would want a fight that takes place in long range for longer... or medium range if its beam based... Decisions, decisions...

Something everyone seems to be ignoring in this discussion is that there is no situation in which Kinetics outperform Beam or Kinetic. People keep saying they're awesome at melee. Well, assuming all your ships survived to phase three, they'd better be good. Because Missiles are AWESOME right out of the gate. Even if you only kill fifty percent in the opening salvo, they still have half their offensive potential gone for the next two rounds. And Beams? Beams are like Kinetics that are stronger, earlier. This allows them to kill off Kinetic ships before they can be too troubling, and they're effective in every round.



Again, there is nothing Kinetics can do that aren't severely outperformed by the other two.