Should Kinetics be Boosted

stasik28

Newcomer

8 600g2g pts

12 years ago

Mar 22, 2013, 2:41:23 PM

Unless the game is EVE, and you use the defense that your race is best at (armor tanking or shielding tanking

)

But this isn't EVE, as Igncom1 mentioned, all the defenses are turned into shields anyway. They CAN be used on more than one weapon type tbh, but I do understand how the game works. It's like Star Trek, adjust the shields to the proper frequency. Have one shielding (flak) set to defend against explosives and missiles/torpedoes, while another is set to defend against plasma weapons (not how it works in Star Trek, where they can only be set to one frequency, but you can catch my drift :P)

VIPDigitalhawk96

Mirror

継続は力なり。 (Keizoku wa chikara nari) Perseverance is power.

VIPDigitalhawk96

Mirror

32 800g2g pts

12 years ago

Mar 24, 2013, 11:34:44 PM

All i can do is run around screaming "Combat update!" over and over.

Seik2000

Newcomer

Seik2000

Newcomer

20 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Mar 30, 2013, 6:49:49 PM

Accuracy at range: L-M-S (total)

Kinetic: 20-40-90 (150)

Beam: ...50-90-70 (210)

Missile: 90-70-40 (200)

Damage / ton (incl. crit): early-midgame-late

Kinetic: 8.3 - 21.2 - 64.8

Beam: ...6.7 - 15.3 - 39.5

Missile: 6.9 - 26.7 - 49.0

Combined (accuracy:damage/t): L-M-S (total)

1. early

Kinetic: .1.7 - .3.3 - .7.5 (12.5)

Beam: ....3.4 - .6.0 - .4.7 (14.1)

Missile: .6.2 - .4.8 - .2.8 (13.8)

2. midgame

Kinetic: .4.2 - .8.5 - 19.1 (31.8)

Beam: ....7.7 - 13.8 - 10.7 (32.2)

Missile: 24.0 - 18.7 - 10.7 (53.4)

3. late

Kinetic: 13.0 - 25.9 - 58.3 (97.2)

Beam: ...20.0 - 35.6 - 27.7 (83.3)

Missile: 44.1 - 34.3 - 19.6 (98.0)

Two core issues left for a total compare:

1. Defense (maybe it's not that essential)

2. Combat dynamic (destroyed ships which can't fire in a later phase) - BIG POINT

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Mar 30, 2013, 6:50:42 PM

Then for vanilla lets have 40-65-95 (200)?

Seik2000

Newcomer

Seik2000

Newcomer

20 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Mar 31, 2013, 1:05:43 AM

Combat dynamic (destroyed ships which can't fire in a later phase) - BIG POINT

Anyone an idea how many ships in average are destroyed per round?

Even if it is only 15-20% per round, this has serious implications for the kinetic weapon results above. For an easy math kinetics lose about 25% of total damage.

So what? Boosting kintecis? Worsening the other two? Or both? Like this:

Kinetic: 40-60-90 (190)

Beam: ...50-90-60 (200)

Missile: 90-60-40 (190)

I think this is really a hard reasoned decision.

One of the problems IMHO is the combat system itself (offense vs. defense). Every weapon will do damage no matter which kind. Contrary to the defense units, which sometimes are waste of ship-space if the enemy did not use the right weapons. Maybe a better way is a two layer defense:

1. Shields (regenerate in part each phase, but kinetics (as the close combat specialist) will blast through/ignoring shields)

2. Armor (helpful against every weapon, but heavy weight compared with shields)

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Mar 31, 2013, 1:34:53 AM

I could go either way.....excusing the pun.

Aureon

Newcomer

Aureon

Newcomer

100g2g pts

12 years ago

Mar 31, 2013, 4:47:48 AM

Combat dynamics hardly have the impact you think, different defense efficiency is a much worse point.

Proper flak or plating makes a ship straight-out immune to the proper weapon, unless they go at x3-4 times the weight of defense: Shields, instead, just don't cut it. This is mainly related to the fact that they can be overwhelmed by damage bonuses, which doesn't apply to plating and flak.

Thing is, kinetic gets the worst of everything. It's the most easily counterable weapon, the one who hits last, and the one which does the least damage.

Tridus

Newcomer

Tridus

Newcomer

14 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Mar 31, 2013, 10:33:57 AM

Missiles are the most easily counterable weapon. Flak is such an effective counter that it's downright goofy.

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Mar 31, 2013, 1:14:20 PM

kinetic defences are horrible, but stack really, REALLY well with the accuracy problems.

The_Doctor

Sophon

The_Doctor

Sophon

12 000g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 2, 2013, 5:25:01 PM

I think kinetics should simply have their tonnage reduced relative to other weapons, or certain kinds of ships have a tonnage -% bonus specifically for kinetics reflecting the hull size and role.

That way, they still suffer from poor accuracy and damage at long range, but more can be put on a ship than other weapons types - this way they'd be the antithesis of missiles: designed to be used in large numbers to overwhelm an enemy in melee. After all, that's largely the basis of kinetic weapons both in history and today.

The benefit, for example, is that for x power from kinetics, you use less space than the same power in missiles or beams. These weapons are far less effective as we know already due to their inaccuracy and low damage per shot, and suffer from the risk of the ship being destroyed before they're in effective weapons range because of the battle system, but leaves you with more space - either to configure with other weapons or modules (using Kinetics as the auxiliary weapons to tip the balance in the last phase of a battle) or even presenting a new viable build (or builds, this is just an example): - using the space saved to make the ships more heavily defended or armoured, so that they can absorb damage long enough to reach melee phase and pummel the enemies with their large kinetic batteries when they get there.

A simple damage, accuracy or RoF buff would be uninteresting, and would just make them another same-damage weapon. Change their tonnage, though, and players can start thinking about using kinetics as broadside style weapons, or secondary weapons on missile boats, and all sorts of other possibilities that don't simply rely on a direct buff to firepower.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

Never shift in to reverse without a backup plan.

Romeo

Literary Transformer

38 900g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 6:32:16 AM

Tridus wrote:
Missiles are the most easily counterable weapon. Flak is such an effective counter that it's downright goofy.

That's because they're an all-or-nothing affair. Believe me, if you've ever been on the receiving end of a missile fleet, Flak goes from awesome to worthless REALLY quick. At least Shields and Deflectors still give you a fleeting chance at survival.

Igncom1 wrote:
kinetic defences are horrible, but stack really, REALLY well with the accuracy problems.

Yeah, big time. If it gets to Melee, Kinetics can usually rip apart even a well-defended fleet. Hopefully an accuracy boost would give them a chance to fight.

Stealth_Hawk

Voyager

Stealth_Hawk

Voyager

23 700g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 7:17:49 PM

Romeo wrote:
That's because they're an all-or-nothing affair. Believe me, if you've ever been on the receiving end of a missile fleet, Flak goes from awesome to worthless REALLY quick. At least Shields and Deflectors still give you a fleeting chance at survival.

So many times I have been on the end of missiles without appropriate flak. Your entire fleet, just.... Gone.

T41

in Disguise

T41

in Disguise

14 100g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 7:21:15 PM

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
So many times I have been on the end of missiles without appropriate flak. Your entire fleet, just.... Gone.

It's down right scary the way missles render everything useless in long-mid range.

Stealth_Hawk

Voyager

Stealth_Hawk

Voyager

23 700g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 7:25:13 PM

T41 wrote:
It's down right scary the way missles render everything useless in long-mid range.

Plus, when the enemy has so many missiles, they know that you're gonna go for an anti-missile Sabotage card, so they just counter you. Missiles are definitely a dangerous game (And hence why all my dreads have at least 20+ flak emplacements.)

T41

in Disguise

T41

in Disguise

14 100g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 7:33:05 PM

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Plus, when the enemy has so many missiles, they know that you're gonna go for an anti-missile Sabotage card, so they just counter you. Missiles are definitely a dangerous game (And hence why all my dreads have at least 20+ flak emplacements.)

And then they switch laser and kill you all over again. I dont know if thats happened to you but the AI is just too smart.

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 8:08:49 PM

I have had the Hissho go from missile, to kinetic, to beam.

Each time absolutely destroying me.

Stealth_Hawk

Voyager

Stealth_Hawk

Voyager

23 700g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 8:25:30 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
I have had the Hissho go from missile, to kinetic, to beam.

Each time absolutely destroying me.

I've noticed that the Hissho are especially good at this tactic. I don't really know why, but they seem to like that strategy.

FreedomFighterEx

Forgotten Heretic

Cat? Cat.

FreedomFighterEx

Forgotten Heretic

28 000g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 9:30:51 PM

AI seem to exactly know what we up to.........

Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 9:37:17 PM

It's almost like the Devs have crafted the AI in a way to beat our best strategy's!

FreedomFighterEx

Forgotten Heretic

Cat? Cat.

FreedomFighterEx

Forgotten Heretic

28 000g2g pts

12 years ago

Apr 4, 2013, 10:18:51 PM

use missile - blast them to stone age, they come back with shit load of flak + beam = my fleet is gone

ok they using beam with flak to counter my fabulous missile tactic, fine i come back with kinetic + shield then

back for revenge with kinetic + shield, smith their fleet to ash then find out there is second fleet equip with missile

what in the actual f**k???, my whole fleet gone again.

main problem is i don't know what is that fleet equip with, we need some sensor that can detect or reveal some information about what is they up to, i solve this by have some light and fast ship doing suicide scout mission to see what are they equip with before getting into the fight but it won't work when they stack fleet up together, i can't get all information i need.

still even i felt anger and annoy, it's like good punching back and forth, damn they not give up that easy...