The tonnage system itself is good because it allows for much diversity in ship design (there are much games using it MOO2 as a well known example). Having just kind of "slots" at each ship will lead to everyone designing the same ship. That would be kind of boring. However the tonnage usage of some modules and moreover the effect of them is just bugged rigth now. Weapon modules are too cheap, support modules are too expensive and defense modules do not scale correctly when putting in more of them. There has to be much more tonnage balancing and if you ask me also some serious rework on the module effects themself.

The game design (flat damage modifier) behind basic power module based on current combat engine is bad anyway. Either it's always going to be taken or never taken.

Radioactive_Piranha wrote:
The power modules that boost fleet power can be really good, especially since they also boost critical chance as well as damage. I never use early power modules though.

Same here, Disharmony seems to be overly small-ship friendly and leaves larger hulls in the dust. Considering the amount of +fleet-effectivity techs having more ships in your fleet equals more power.

I think a good solution would be to make most power modules cost 0 (10% at most) tonnage but be high cost in industry and resources, later power might need orichalcix+antimatter. This way power would have a role similar to tonnage modules, allowing you to stack fleets with cost-inefficient ships to create invincible hero fleets, or have a few power-using hard hitters mixed in a fleet protected by more expendable ships.

I have done the math, too. Sometimes the Power Module is useless. But I notice the cost of the ship shifts because the strategic resources can cut down the cost.



Sometimes the result of calculation shows when putting on the Power Module, the damage of the ship could be as the same as without the Power Module...



But sometimes you have plenty or even monopoly of certain strategic resources (I think it's anti-matter?), the cost is cheaper so you can build faster.

Autocthon wrote:
Fleet Bonus power modules are amazing in large fleets. The ship bonus power modules area bit too heavy (especially in smaller ships).



Basically it ends up being that larger ships like the single ship modules (because they can fit more weapons/defenses per ship) whereas smaller ships stack fleet power better (because they have more per fleet).

I have found that by max/min on fleet designs, the Power Modules can be effective. It took some time though. You could load 12 Destroyers with just Weapons, Power Module, Engine Module (if you want), and Tonnage Module. Then design 3 Cruisers/Battleships with nothing but Defense and Armor. Put your Cruisers/Battleships at the top of list. This gives the entire fleet 3 damage soakers and 12 fully loaded damage dealing ships.



I really don't want to do the calculations, but I know for a fact after doing my previous calculations that this will work. But it should be the only way Power Modules are viable.

Igncom1 wrote:
Well that's what the HP modules do, but they only repair with repair modules.



Essentially defences work as multipliers for the HP for particular weapons.



100hp with 1 flak module is 200HP to missiles



100hp with 1 flak and one shield is 200hp to beams and missiles, but 100hp still to deflectors.





It really wasn't explained all that well, but in it's essence its the simplest system for making ships stronger.

This is great info. Thx for posting this. I was wondering what that ration was too. Is it the same for Beam Modules?

MindX wrote:
They should go back to vanilla for the Power, Invasion, Engine for space/tonnage requirements. I loved putting the Power Modules on my ships before for that little boost; but now the tonnage requirements is just too high. Ditto with engines and invasion modules.

Fleet Bonus power modules are amazing in large fleets. The ship bonus power modules area bit too heavy (especially in smaller ships).



Basically it ends up being that larger ships like the single ship modules (because they can fit more weapons/defenses per ship) whereas smaller ships stack fleet power better (because they have more per fleet).

Invasion modules should be the same weight, but now that weapons and defences don't contribute to invasion values and so require the use of dedicated invasion ships to get stuff done.



Personally I wish there was a space-superiority mechanic where disabling enemy system defences or simply controlling a systems space for a number of turns without a comparable amount of enemy ower: gave sieging a large boost so we could easily get to the 10 turn limit (And possibly change trhat limit to the previous 4 turn limit.)

They should go back to vanilla for the Power, Invasion, Engine for space/tonnage requirements. I loved putting the Power Modules on my ships before for that little boost; but now the tonnage requirements is just too high. Ditto with engines and invasion modules.

One of the things I like to do is have a fleet consisting of 2 Cruisers and the rest Destroyers. I load the Destroyers up with nothing but weapons. I load the Cruisers with 3 Shield and 3 Flak. I would like to load them with 3 Deflectors, 3 Shield, and 3 Flak, but then you only have 1 slot for weapons if you choose Repair and Engine Module. That sucks IMO.



The Armor Modules are way off too. I've had instances where 1 Armor Module can take away up to 10 weapons. I understand when you work your way down the tech tree, things get better, then why bother having something available if there's no purpose for it when it's available right away.



The tonnage system needs tons and tons of work, no pun intended. lol

ørret wrote:
One defense module provides a fixed reduction of 50% incoming damage. Adding more defense cost the same tonnage but the effectively blocked damage per additional def module is decreasing (the exact numbers are posted here somewhere).

Its clear that you can not expect to receive 100% damage immunity with 2 defense modules so something has to be changed with the defense modules general functionality.

I liked the MOO2 approach where shields absorbed a certain amount of damage + reduced incoming damage by a fixed or percentual (depending on the shield) amount.



This could be introduced in ES e.g. via support modules..lets say a shield has 1000hp and recharges 200hp per battle phase. You could add tonnage costing modifications to your shields like additional capacitors (+500 to max shield cap) stronger chargers (better reloads) etc. Support modules could then be used for percentual damage reduction....



But i assume i am expecting too much.

Well that's what the HP modules do, but they only repair with repair modules.



Essentially defences work as multipliers for the HP for particular weapons.



100hp with 1 flak module is 200HP to missiles



100hp with 1 flak and one shield is 200hp to beams and missiles, but 100hp still to deflectors.





It really wasn't explained all that well, but in it's essence its the simplest system for making ships stronger.

Radioactive_Piranha wrote:
Can you clarify? Is there some sort of bug with defense modules?

One defense module provides a fixed reduction of 50% incoming damage. Adding more defense cost the same tonnage but the effectively blocked damage per additional def module is decreasing (the exact numbers are posted here somewhere).

Its clear that you can not expect to receive 100% damage immunity with 2 defense modules so something has to be changed with the defense modules general functionality.

I liked the MOO2 approach where shields absorbed a certain amount of damage + reduced incoming damage by a fixed or percentual (depending on the shield) amount.



This could be introduced in ES e.g. via support modules..lets say a shield has 1000hp and recharges 200hp per battle phase. You could add tonnage costing modifications to your shields like additional capacitors (+500 to max shield cap) stronger chargers (better reloads) etc. Support modules could then be used for percentual damage reduction....



But i assume i am expecting too much.

ørret wrote:
defense modules do not scale correctly when putting in more of them.

Can you clarify? Is there some sort of bug with defense modules?

Ok, so explaining something in another thread, I did the math on the power module, and quite frankly, the component is useless.



Okay, so the level 1 component uses 25% tonnage of a ship, and gives you a 25% bonus on guns. Say that the ship has x tonnage, then the power module takes up 0.25x. However, to get a weapon bonus equal to 0.20x, we need to put down (4/1)*0.20x = 0.8x number of guns. This is the whole ship apart from the component, and it's still just break-even.



The level 2 component uses the same tonnage, but has a bonus of 35%. We might have better luck with this one, right? Actually, yes, but . The maths: in order to get 0.20x worth of guns, we need to put down (100/35)*0.20x ~= 0.57x. You now have room for an engine, if you want to add it, or four armour pieces or some defenes. You'll have to choose with though, and by adding them, you're once again only at break-even on the weapons front. You haven't really gained anything by having the power module.



So on to the level 3 component then. It gives us a 45% bonus for the same tonnage. This time, in order to get the 0.20x bonus, we need to use (100/45)*0.20x = 0.44x tonnage. This is beginning to look like something, but it's still only marginally effective. On a 400 tonnage ship, you'll have about 144 tonnage left after break-even to play with. Do mind that you haven't actually gained anything from the component yet, so you'll have to add at least one more gun to be better off than before. Doable on a 400 tonnage ship, but it seriously diminishes the 36 tonnage you have left on a 100 tonnage ship. You still have to place an engine or something in that tonnage as well, don't forget! And this is end-game technology! The first time that this component can give you a useful but still rather negligible bonus is after investing tons of research into it.



And you don't even need the bonus in the first place. 7 pirate missiles still destroyed my cruiser despite the faction bonus of +40% HP and 3 flak modules. That's just silly.



Suggestions: First of all, always have someone do the math.



Actual suggestions: Increase the bonus, and give the bonus to defense instead of offense. My ships get creamed by pirates, even with defenses present and having an expensive HP bonus. On the flip side, I also rarely fail to destroy enemy ships. Clearly there is enough damage dealing the game, and some added defenses would actually be a welcome bonus.



Secondly, rework the tonnage requirements to be realistic (see the post I linked).

I don't think anything should cost the price of loosing a maximum 15 of Weapons Modules. No engineer, or General, would sacrifice 6-15 weapons for any kind of engine, unless it was as stealth mission.



What's funny is there's Technology that gives you +30% food for better refrigeration, but we can't improve the Module/tonnage ratio? lol



Is it too much to ask to be consistent? jk. lol

Engines make sense as % tonnage. Bigger ships need more thrust. Other modules with % effects also make sense as % tonnage. But not armor with flat hp, or fighter and bombers, or the bomb modules that have a fleet wide effect.



I think the power modules also make sense as % tonnage, lore wise, but balance wise it is bad. If the low tier power module is worth it, it becomes a no brainer at higher levels. If the higher levels are a no brainer, then it becomes worthless at lower levels. Perhaps a significant boost in both power and production cost could make this balanced. Ships with power modules would be more powerful than those without, but you couldn't pump them out in as great of numbers. Another idea is for later ideas to unlock different types of power modules which could be chosen between. For example, the lowest one could boost only weapons, a later one could boost only defense, and perhaps a third that boosts both but not as much as the specialized power modules.



Engines could also become more interesting that way. Choosing between a boost to blue arrow movement, or green, or a combination of the two. Maybe one that gives a large boost to evade but not movement.



But if they stick with the current system, maybe the power module description could be changed to "Not as bad as the sensor module".

Oh ya, I forgot everything is based on x%. It's so freaking stupid the way they have it. Sorry but I just hate it. I don't even know if Titanium is even working either. That's 30% off if you hold majority. But every freaking turn someone is asking to bum resources from me I'm afraid to say no in retribution to start war with me. I don't even consider it part of the game anymore because of that.



If you're gonna do tonnage, just flat rate man. That's all I want.

drang wrote:
Could power modules be worth it if you have a cost discount on them? Is tonnage the only way to make them good? What would make them useful for some configurations and factions but not always superior to X amount of weapons?

I believe they cost x% of tonnage, so increasing it would do nothing in terms of total tonnage used. Actually it would make them take up more tonnage in terms of flat value.

I'm pretty sure the tonnage would have to be cut by 40%. Look, Weapon modules using their supported range only cost 7 tons. The Power Module and Engine Module each cost 50 tons. That means it costs 7 Weapon Modules to equal the cost of 1 Power Module or 1 Engine Module. The Cruiser is suppose to have a -15% discount on the Power Module. That still comes out to 6 Weapons Modules to the cost of 1 Power Module or 1 Engine Module. Due to things costing a % of the tonnage, you can loose anywhere from 6-15 Weapon Modules when adding either the Power Module or Engine Module. That's ridiculous. It should be 40-50% cheaper in tonnage.



You could also increase the Min/Max damage by 125%. This would put the most proficient use with the Power Module on a Battleship at 16 weapons.



With 16 weapons, I can get the following with the Battleship:



Battleship:

16 Weapon Modules

2 Shield Modules

3 Flak Modules

1 Power Module

1 Tonnage Module

1 Repair Module or Engine Module



Personally I feel the developers need to just get rid of the tonnage system all together and give each ship Module limits. Example, a Battleship can pick from any 3 Support Modules and 2 any Special Modules. Same with Weapons and Shields. This would finally make the invasions stuff worth it because you're getting them for free. Everybody likes free stuff. Then it wouldn't matter how sucky they are, lol.



No other game does this tonnage system because it's just plain nuts. There's too many variables.

Could power modules be worth it if you have a cost discount on them? Is tonnage the only way to make them good? What would make them useful for some configurations and factions but not always superior to X amount of weapons?