So now the sowers are getting alongside with the Amoeba 65 race traits points (finally...like every other race has)



opinions are the Sowers now saved?



and also!



IMO most of our hard work to balance the game and save the sowers is destroyed if the custom races got a race trait limit. (which is planed for next patch)



i would like to know the oppinions of the "SAVE THE SOWERS" Community about this.





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Custom sowers never needed saving. Vanilla Sowers is the one taht needs saving, so unless they overhaul traits to put them in line with other vanilla factions no they're not saved.

Whether or not the Sowers are truly saved depends on their new race point usage. And hopefully Tolerant will get more of the Buff we wanted.



That aside, I say the Sowers are much closer to safety than what they were. But room for improvement could be utilized...

Sovereign wrote:
So now the sowers are getting alongside with the Amoeba 65 race traits points (finally...like every other race has)



opinions are the Sowers now saved?

A qualified 'yes'? Tolerant still doesn't really work though: it's still far too situational - if you get methanes and lavas, yay, otherwise boo.

Autocthon wrote:
Custom sowers never needed saving. Vanilla Sowers is the one taht needs saving, so unless they overhaul traits to put them in line with other vanilla factions no they're not saved.

They certainly needed a bit of help! They were viable but they weren't up there with the rest of the races unless you were pretty lucky. With 65 points and the additional tweaks, custom sowers are probably now one of the stronger factions.

If tolerant had 10 points taken off, and Vanilla Sowers got Optimistic 2, they'd then have about 15 points of a gap to close with other vanilla factions.



Right now saving the sowers is more about revamping their vanilla traits than anything else. I still recommend my posited trait combination.

Agree imo unless tolerant traits doesnt get a discount in terms of race trait points for the Sowers (10/15) or (10/20) for instance sowers arent saved in my opinion.

Actually, I retract what I said about custom. I've grown of opinion its a lot more frail than I though and kinda easy to disrupt by bad luck. Not as bad as before but their performance varies more than it should based on things the player cant control.



The 10 trait limit hurts sowers more than the 5 extra points helps in my opinion.



The armor discount hull was part of why the sowers kept up, you could make a really mean fleet, specially if you got titanium abundance. The new interaction with the HP trait and the new armor itself leaves that considerably weaker. Things going towards glass cannons again means losing that crutch too.

Their affinity isnt too bad and becomes pretty good with a few improvements on the system but all traits together make for a very slow start of the match. Even micro-managing I cant help but fall behind the AI quickly. I catch up in the mid and endgame of course but by then it "could" be all lost already depending on the difficulty or in case I go multi-player.

The general problem the Sowers have is that they're too luck-based. You absolutely need to have a certain collection of planets nearby to colonize. Sowers, by far, have the least amount of influence over their early game, because they aren't nearly as flexible - they are far more susceptible to the whim of the galaxy generator, and unless the stars align and they can get a lucky early game, they're completely underpowered. Other races are not so dependent on luck, and have far more options in what they do and where they can go -they have more than one build to choose from.

Stop and imagine an ES where Sowers got Lava/Barren/Arctic Colony for free, and had T1 attached to research. How would that play out? Suddenly Sowers become the best race to take advantage of poor systems, the "good" planets have always been bad for tham and the fact that they're not natural colonizers of at least Barren/Arctic has always held them back.

Compared to Harmony, Sheredyn, Sophon, or even automatons sower don't have much going for them.

1. Have tolerant which is only use in early to maybe mid game. However, it is not even that useful to sowers early because of expansionism and planets conditions disapproval. Ever tried playing Harmony with tolerant, you spread like wild fire. Suggestion being is add a third stage to tolerant that removes approval lost from planets or on the first stage -50% and second stage -75%.

2. Space cadets. Seems like a trait like this shouldn't even exist in game that is so technology oriented. Sophon have their amazing strength from being able to generate research quickly. It goes to even compound the problem in point 1. Slow research means slow access to key technologies that would allow you maintain approval in system or terraform the system to something more suitable. Lack of technology is death, generally the longer the game more this becomes a crippling trait.

3. Trying to make the sowers competitive. I don't know if this has be suggested before, i did not read all the pages, give them -50% to research and 40% of industrial is added to research along with the their normal food. Seems simple but I think it would help them out a lot.

I think part of the Sowers trait should be "No Disapproval from Planet Traits." Either that, or give them insane :Industry: boosts.

Fenrakk101 wrote:
I think part of the Sowers trait should be "No Disapproval from Planet Traits." Either that, or give them insane :Industry: boosts.

No disapproval would help their early game a ton, but the industry boosts would have cause an increase of total industry somewhere around 130% to 180%. My thinking behind the ind to sci is that would allow they get science while continuing industrial activities. Such as creating system improvement or building fleets, and when not doing that either those things they could then use ind to dust. This should allow them to focus solely on ind production, like a sower should, and war time nor improvements should slow their advancement.

I think that would make em Harmony without the Harmony penalties. It would be overpowered as hell. Just set up a sowers game under the EndlessGenetics mod and give yourself 10/10 morale in addition to the regular race traits see how that ll play out.

So my current favorite faction is under powered? I seriously don't see the point, but I never played multiplayer.



I don't see the point because they kick ass for moderate wars management, wars, cold wars, wars cold wars. And clearly for a fast expansion they are quite excellent too because of factoring power. I suspect this thread and vote is for Endless Space not at all for Disharmony, they have also some kick ass improvements.



EDIT: Ha yeah don't abuse of their special ability to colonize anything, I'd say only for very moderate strategic purposes.



EDIT2: Reading the posts I feel many players feel forced to base their Sower strategy on the ability to colonize anything, you should try temper that quite a lot, that could change a lot your vision of Sowers.

Nook wrote:
EDIT2: Reading the posts I feel many players feel forced to base their Sower strategy on the ability to colonize anything, you should try temper that quite a lot, that could change a lot your vision of Sowers.

What's the point of having that ability if it shouldn't factor into your strategy at all?

Nook wrote:
So my current favorite faction is under powered? I seriously don't see the point, but I never played multiplayer.



I don't see the point because they kick ass for moderate wars management, wars, cold wars, wars cold wars. And clearly for a fast expansion they are quite excellent too because of factoring power. I suspect this thread and vote is for Endless Space not at all for Disharmony, they have also some kick ass improvements.



EDIT: Ha yeah don't abuse of their special ability to colonize anything, I'd say only for very moderate strategic purposes.



EDIT2: Reading the posts I feel many players feel forced to base their Sower strategy on the ability to colonize anything, you should try temper that quite a lot, that could change a lot your vision of Sowers.

The sowers recieve a relatively heavy growth penalty no matter what the colonize, and a significant overall penalty on T1 planets. Their ability to "colonize anything" (which isn't even their affinity) is one of the few ways they have any chance of keeping up with other factions.

Fenrakk101 wrote:
What's the point of having that ability if it shouldn't factor into your strategy at all?

It's to be able to use it, which isn't necessarily meaning to abuse it, but use it with moderation when it's important.



for example it's to take a very strategic system few turns sooner you could, or quite sooner only in very rare cases and if it's very important.



Abuse it isn't working and there's many reason for that, not only the penalty but also take later planets is too soon your empire isn't ready for that, apart perhaps for very few system like quoted above.

Autocthon wrote:
The sowers recieve a relatively heavy growth penalty no matter what the colonize, and a significant overall penalty on T1 planets. Their ability to "colonize anything" (which isn't even their affinity) is one of the few ways they have any chance of keeping up with other factions.

What special grow penalty??? They have none, there's even a bonus by having a +10 happiness bonus it's like if for each new system they colonize a planet with a +10 bonus. The big penalty is science, the big plus for expansion is the factory bonus and the food coming from factory. It's excellent for a very fast expansion but as all factions if you go over the good rythm you'll get troubles. And the second important plus is a significant strategical advantage, but again not made to abuse of it.



If it was possible to abuse of it Sowers would just did major but kick.



EDIT: Perhaps you mean the food is a grow penalty but the problem of abusing of their special ability to colonize anything is the happiness management. The food penalty is just moving expansion from food and population grow to building and expanding.