Maybe it is how they're viewed by their people? For instance I think the narrative behind UE is that they have no regard for human lives, so to the grunts I'm sure they're not thinking wow how good is that Emperor. Which might be different depending on the circumstances, say when faced with an enemy that is a threat to your species very existence, and how far you have to go to protect it. But I agree that for now the label may just mean how aggressive the AI plays, but it's still in alpha so maybe there's more to it coming.



And for the debate on good or evil, and choices. Again gotta look at the narratives provided for the races, I don't think it said anywhere that the cravers felt guilty about consuming planets and then moving on. I think it was just the opposite, and when compared I don't think we would compare cravers to carnivores, more like a plague.

GrimFrame wrote:
Yea I was thinking along the same lines. Except that IoM is like you said in a fight for its very existence and will find no friends in the galaxies. Thus their fanaticism for the God Emperor which has been cultivated for thousands of years is not as horrifying when the fact "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." IoM has evolved to become what it is, and the lives they "throw away" are usually in defense of their systems or attempts to rid planets of races bent on wholesale slaughter. While the UE is just now discovering these races and has no background to be violent other than like you said the "us or them" mindset.



But I think we've had enough back and forth on another persons topic. If you wanna talk about good vs evil and the ethics and moralities of humans in a proposed space faring age then feel free to PM me

It goes deeper than that. It's the fact that you have the existence of a warping malevolent influence in the form of Chaos breaking down the walls to your reality and justifying the creation of a virtual police state in the way of the Adeptus Arbites and Inquisition. It's about your outnumbered by the Orks from nearly all sides. It's about your closest allies the Eldar are as likely to work with you as betray you for ends you are not, and likely will never be aware of.

Mankind is brutal as a trait of survival.

Not because it's willfully evil.

Mr_Eon wrote:
It's pretty difficult having the human concept of 'Good and Evil' when we're talking about races that may or may not have the same ethical set. In fact, I predict that projecting our Terran senses of morality and ethics onto Alien species is going to get us into a LOAD of trouble when we finally do make First Contact.

This.



For example, I wouldn't describe the Hissho as "evil" in a human sense.

WireWolf wrote:
Yeah I was channeling a little bit of 40ks Imperium of Man into this. In 40k There government is one where the modern 21st century man would be monumentally horrified with. But without it and all of it's harshness, coldness and uncaring nature of the lives of millions when weighed agaisnt the fate of the species you realize that without this humanity would have been destroyed and subsumed long ago.



While we might not have all the data here given that the data drop does mention humanity is new to the interstellar scene the UE might be 'evil' for the same reasons as the IoM.

Yea I was thinking along the same lines. Except that IoM is like you said in a fight for its very existence and will find no friends in the galaxies. Thus their fanaticism for the God Emperor which has been cultivated for thousands of years is not as horrifying when the fact "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." IoM has evolved to become what it is, and the lives they "throw away" are usually in defense of their systems or attempts to rid planets of races bent on wholesale slaughter. While the UE is just now discovering these races and has no background to be violent other than like you said the "us or them" mindset.



But I think we've had enough back and forth on another persons topic. If you wanna talk about good vs evil and the ethics and moralities of humans in a proposed space faring age then feel free to PM me

Yeah I was channeling a little bit of 40ks Imperium of Man into this. In 40k There government is one where the modern 21st century man would be monumentally horrified with. But without it and all of it's harshness, coldness and uncaring nature of the lives of millions when weighed agaisnt the fate of the species you realize that without this humanity would have been destroyed and subsumed long ago.



While we might not have all the data here given that the data drop does mention humanity is new to the interstellar scene the UE might be 'evil' for the same reasons as the IoM.

WireWolf wrote:
Who know's maybe it's a mindset the average human sort of shares. A kind of fervent patriotism where it's, 'Those aliens might kill one of us! But there will be others to carry on!'

This could be an example of humanity believing they need to get a foothold in the galaxy at any cost or fall beneath the boot of an alien invader. *shrugs* The way I see it.

For the Emperor!



Maybe it'll all be explained with the narratives

To an extent I agree with you. But also realize that being able to judge the UE by our modern day beliefs in what's good and whats evil is a bit silly as well.

They might not care as much about the lives of their citizens for any number of 'good' and or 'neutral' reasons.

It's mentioned that in the setting that the UE is the first foray into the wider galaxy.

Running into species like the Cravers and the Hissho and whatever else probably caused them to develop this mindset.



Who know's maybe it's a mindset the average human sort of shares. A kind of fervent patriotism where it's, 'Those aliens might kill one of us! But there will be others to carry on!'

This could be an example of humanity believing they need to get a foothold in the galaxy at any cost or fall beneath the boot of an alien invader. *shrugs* The way I see it.

WireWolf wrote:
From out perspective. Human Morality and Ethics breaks down pretty quickly in the face of an alien species who have a different biology, set of instincts, cognition, evolutionary history and pressures, needs and wants.

I agree with you on that, what I'm saying is that their Alignment may not be comparing how one empire/race views another. But if you take them on their own how they behave towards themselves as a species. I use the UE as an example because they're humans, as are we(mostly). If our governments collapsed or were overthrown in place of a dictatorship that had not only the power but the unchecked ability to throw human lives away in the attempt of making just a bit more money, wouldn't we view that as just a bit evil? And therefore the UE has a bad alignment because as compared to the sophons they have no regard for even their own race. That's just my opinion on the alignments, if it is supposed to be how the other races see each other then maybe they just went with something simple to add a bit of difference between races, and didn't really care about ethics and morality.

I treat it like I treat personalities in Civ. I prefer it being random (as an option) so that if I so choose, I don't know how any given race will respond and react.

From out perspective. Human Morality and Ethics breaks down pretty quickly in the face of an alien species who have a different biology, set of instincts, cognition, evolutionary history and pressures, needs and wants.

GrimFrame wrote:
And for the debate on good or evil, and choices. Again gotta look at the narratives provided for the races, I don't think it said anywhere that the cravers felt guilty about consuming planets and then moving on. I think it was just the opposite, and when compared I don't think we would compare cravers to carnivores, more like a plague.

Agreed. I think they are more of a "bad" thing than an "evil" thing, from our perspective.

I noticed when choosing a race to play that it had a good/evil/neutral alignment. i dont necessarily speak for everybody, but i feel this makes the races fall into more set "roles". i mean, technically, none of the races would be "evil" from their own standpoint and it just feels weird to play a good race like sophons and have a treaty and trade agreements with an evil race like united empire because it seems that good races should ally with good races and evil with evil. each race is trying to win by itself, not for some universal good or evil cause. if 2 players are both hissho, they are both going to try to win themselves, regardless of their alignment. i feel that removing good/evil/neutral would better reflect this fact, that, when it comes down to it, everyone there is playing to win.

Unless they don't see it as objectively bad.

To the Craver what they're doing is simply a fact of life for them. They were designed to fight and consume and therefore their ethical/moral model is radically different from our own.



The only reason why I'm not more harsh about the 'Good' and 'Evil' thing is because this is Space Opera game. And Space Opera has always been more then a little human-centric and catered to human sensibilities.

Monarch wrote:
The Craver are "Evil" because they mindlessly consume all life. That's objectively bad :P

What if they mindfully consume all life, would that make it ok? What if they verbally announce they feel bad about it before doing it, will that make them not evil? Or what if they mindlessly consume only some life, is it ok then?



Surely every carnivore on earth should be classified as evil, right? Let's exterminate them all -- oh wait.



Galactic Civilizations II did an interesting version of Good vs Evil, where "evil" meant "easy" and "good" meant "hard". Getting the badge for conquering the game with a Good alignment meant you are good at playing the game. The Evil badge was for noobs, casual players and the terminally incompetent.

i know it doesnt affect gameplay. but i do feel there is a subtle psychological effect with the alignments that encourages falling into a set role based on your alignment

Maybe have the alignments alter depending on YOUR race? Selecting your race as the Cravers will have everyone else shown as evil?

I don't really see a problem with it, it's similar to what I'm used to in RPGs or such.



In most wars, both sides are "good"; "evil" races have just as much interest in killing each other as in killing "good" races, since, well, "we're both evil" isn't exactly grounds for teamwork, so much as stabbing each other in the back when most convenient.

Mr_Eon wrote:
It's pretty difficult having the human concept of 'Good and Evil' when we're talking about races that may or may not have the same ethical set. In fact, I predict that projecting our Terran senses of morality and ethics onto Alien species is going to get us into a LOAD of trouble when we finally do make First Contact.

Meh, not really. In some things yeah, but "Do onto others as you'd have done unto yourself" seems pretty easy to wrap your head around. The Craver are "Evil" because they mindlessly consume all life. That's objectively bad :P

It's pretty difficult having the human concept of 'Good and Evil' when we're talking about races that may or may not have the same ethical set. In fact, I predict that projecting our Terran senses of morality and ethics onto Alien species is going to get us into a LOAD of trouble when we finally do make First Contact.

I think it only changes how the AI will playing, evil empires will be more aggressive than good ones. I´m not entirely sure though.