Multiple fleets simultaneous defense/attack

eaTae

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 11:35:04 AM

How about redefining what's considered a 'fleet'?

On some board-games command points define the maximum number of ships a system can contain/sustain/support. Effectively limiting the size of fleets as all ships that are currently in a system are considered a fleet.

However, I didn't put much thought into how this might work for ES.

MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

47 300g2g pts

12 years ago

Jun 9, 2012, 5:07:42 PM

This thread is the origin of all simultaneous fleet attack/defense discussions.

Other threads about this have been archived:

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13151-suggestion-handling-multiple-fleets-in-battle-bonuses

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13162-suggestion-multiple-fleets-simultaneous-combat

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13681-suggestion-three-way-mexican-stand-off

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13304-multiple-fleet-battles

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13306-suggestion-coordinated-attacks-when-all-else-fails-team-up.

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13798-combined-fleet-engagements

Feel free to post here about this topic here and inform yourself about the variations the threads listed above have already discussed, but don't open new suggestion threads for anything alike.

eaTae

Newcomer

eaTae

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 22, 2012, 3:51:15 PM

To keep the fictional logic consistent:

Even if your ships can travel FTL your distress signal cannot.

But say warp + quantum entanglement might enable you to get help in a matter of minutes.

Akilae

Newcomer

Akilae

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 7:35:02 PM

Well i said it would be one requirement. It could have more just like you said. Possibly some more techs that would be require to allow more fleets to join, like Non-linear mathematics and fleet command communications or even some other like fleet coordination computing or alogarithm. As you research you could get more fleets to join. And of course a cap.

To be honest this is bringing me more ideas. I haven't noticed implemented yet but planets should have active defences. Helping your fleet in combat or destroying enemy ships. This could be done like this. Enemy ships arrive at X system. You have a fleet there and engage. There are 4 planets in the system. The planet that would have the battle would be chosen randomly. If it happens around a planet that is not colonised or doesn't have defences built then no help for you. Otherwise you would get some help.

This could bring a new type of ship as well. The bomber with the sole purpose for planetary bombardment to disable the defences on the ground. And after that you would get the invasion going.

This could extend games for example for someone that is trying to get a victory on the science front or any non-military end.

Zenicetus

Old Timer

Zenicetus

Old Timer

17 900g2g pts

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 6:16:42 PM

Akilae wrote:
If an empire has researched warp engines they should be able to help a distress call in a matter of minutes inside the same system. So i guess that would be the requirement for having all fleets joining in a battle.

I think the problem with that idea is that Warp tech would become an "I Win" button, if one side had it, and the other one didn't. Maybe not in every case, but it would allow a group of inferior fleets to gang up on a single more capable fleet, just because they had that one tech. It would mean a race through the tech tree to get Warp as soon as you can.

And if both factions have warp, then it reduces tactics down to who has the biggest stack in the area. I just think that's not as interesting as separate fleet tactics. That is, if the AI can manage separate fleets, and both the AI and the player have enough control options for order of battle, etc. (which right now seem limited).

SpaceDogTaz

Old Timer

SpaceDogTaz

Old Timer

11 000g2g pts

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 5:49:21 PM

What if the system already has 2 fleets in it when an attack is started, say they are both on the same planet. but only one gets to fight, seems odd.

Akilae

Newcomer

Akilae

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 5:32:57 PM

If an empire has researched warp engines they should be able to help a distress call in a matter of minutes inside the same system. So i guess that would be the requirement for having all fleets joining in a battle.

jordanjay29

Newcomer

jordanjay29

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 2:08:41 PM

So maybe supporting fleets would appear after the Long Range Phase and couldn't attack until the Melee phase? Just to stagger it and balance it out a bit.

ES could also have a system sort of like SotS had, where an incoming enemy would declare an attack and you would be presented with a dialogue of which fleet had the command prerogative. Of course, in SotS, you could bring in ships from either fleet if you had the right type of vessels, but the idea of selecting which fleet gets to defend would go a long way, especially when you have a fleet of colony ships next to a fleet of defense ships.

Zenicetus

Old Timer

Zenicetus

Old Timer

17 900g2g pts

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 1:52:23 PM

Jakey wrote:
Yeah, but if you can detect an enemy fleet approaching your system. Your defending fleets should be smart enough to mobilize and intercept.

Lightspeed delay. The delay from Earth to Pluto is roughly 5.5 hours to know anything that's happening out there (give or take; Pluto has an eccentric orbit so sometimes it's a bit closer, sometimes it's further out).

The speed of light delay has interesting implications for space combat, like not being able to know where your target actually is, if it's taking evasive maneuvers, until you get close enough for the lightspeed delay to stop masking the movement. In that respect, ES is pretty realistic in using homing missiles for the first phase of combat, where you couldn't be sure where the enemy actually is.

Anyway... I think this is a reasonable explanation for why multiple fleets can't engage in one combat round. Not only are the communications and travel speeds slow over in-system distances, but unless you have magic ways of avoiding inertia, you'd be spending some time matching velocities. Space combat takes time.

Additional fleets in the area can always be used for mopping up, or last-ditch defense. I think it's tactically more interesting than throwing everything in the neighborhood into one big stack, vs. the other guy's big stack.

Ketobor

Newcomer

Ketobor

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 1:13:09 PM

Calling in support is too abuseable with the combat system as it is.

If it was part of a large overhaul of combat as a whole it might work.

Virus

Old

Virus

Old

20 800g2g pts

12 years ago

May 21, 2012, 1:07:52 PM

I think these small battels are nice.

But being able to call for backup should be ab card but then their must be a other card to block it.

Also a hero could block this passivly.

cobaltmetal

Newcomer

cobaltmetal

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 3:20:59 AM

When an AI starts combat when the player all fleets in the sector should be able to enter into the battle just not that one specific fleet.

joxang

Newcomer

joxang

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 10:04:43 PM

Sepiche wrote:
The problem is allowing multiple fleets in the same battle would place much more emphasis on pure numbers.

There should probably be some advantage to having multiple fleets in a system (besides just them lining up to fight), but simply putting them all together to fight is a little overboard IMHO.

The alternative is the somewhat contrived situation where all of your fleets in the same system have to fight a small enemy fleet one by one. And imo, there's nothing wrong with having numbers involved, especially when the tech is really well designed (like in the alpha) where if you have a high enough defensive level, the attackers can't penetrate your armour/shielding.

Sepiche

Newcomer

Sepiche

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6 000g2g pts

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 9:47:19 PM

The problem is allowing multiple fleets in the same battle would place much more emphasis on pure numbers.

There should probably be some advantage to having multiple fleets in a system (besides just them lining up to fight), but simply putting them all together to fight is a little overboard IMHO.

SirFlipsALot

Mithrite

SirFlipsALot

Mithrite

21 500g2g pts

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 9:29:36 PM

That is about exactly what I meant.

And of cause, it would simply look awesome xD

joxang

Newcomer

joxang

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 6:34:12 PM

I agree with the backup idea. I also think that the attacking ships should be able to choose which fleet to attack.

Command points contribute to single fleets, one of which will get attacked. After which, reinforcements in the same system will arrive at some point in the battle (time of arrival could depend on speed, commander and luck?), the idea being that the first fleet to get attacked will likely have lost ships by the time reinforcements arrive.

RuffCreekJefferson

Newcomer

RuffCreekJefferson

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 6:00:02 PM

I just think that three or four fleet battles would look awesome! It seems like the engine could handle it

SirFlipsALot

Mithrite

SirFlipsALot

Mithrite

21 500g2g pts

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 5:50:43 PM

I agree on both sides, but in my opinion a system like in Total War:Shogun 2 (second reference today xD) would be quite a good solution.

Fleets near the attacked friendly fleet (e.g. in the same system) would be able to help them as "backup units"

They could enter battle as soon as the defending fleet seems to loose the fight, in order to help them out.

Maybe the developers could include something like a perk for a commander type hero, that gives them the ability to attack a fleet without them havin the ability to call for backup.

Could be called "Intercept Communication" or sth like this

What do you guys think about this?

Jakey

Newcomer

Jakey

Newcomer

300g2g pts

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 5:20:40 PM

BobbyDylan wrote:
Weeelll... If you imagine a fleet being engaged around Pluto, it'd take some time for the Earth Fleet to reinforce it. Space is big so I guess I could Headcannon this enough that it wouldn't bother me.

Yeah, but if you can detect an enemy fleet approaching your system. Your defending fleets should be smart enough to mobilize and intercept.

BobbyDylan

Newcomer

BobbyDylan

Newcomer

12 years ago

May 4, 2012, 7:36:05 AM

Weeelll... If you imagine a fleet being engaged around Pluto, it'd take some time for the Earth Fleet to reinforce it. Space is big so I guess I could Headcannon this enough that it wouldn't bother me.