Battles Start @ Random Distance - Endless Space

Battles Start @ Random Distance

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LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:26:04 PM

But battles very seldom reach short range at all, so kinetics end up underused compared to missiles and beams. There's not much variability, with battles always being the same. Nothing to keep you on your toes without a change like this. Kinetics are powerful up close, yes, but if you know your enemy would favour that kind of approach, you'd invest a lot on armour to counter his advantage. The game's warfare is all about adapting to your adversary, after all.

There could be cards that increased or decreased the range (within the established Long-Medium-Short parameters) between the battling fleets, but maybe that's something for another suggestion.

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Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 12, 2012, 6:39:11 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
The AI i have faced would defy such a tactic, they eventually adapted against beams to the point i was only getting 12% efficiency.

Strange, considering that when I play the AI responded to my beams threat by outfitting with missiles. And flak.

It worked, sort of. I'd lose a few ships due to their missiles taking so long to impact and my getting no card buffs against them. So I was forced to make room for some flak myself.

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Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 12, 2012, 6:09:29 PM

The AI i have faced would defy such a tactic, they eventually adapted against beams to the point i was only getting 12% efficiency.

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Draco18s

Newcomer

Draco18s

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 12, 2012, 5:53:51 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
Not reaching melee range? what game you been playing?

Here's how to complete combat in the opening round:

1) Load up with all beams.

2) Engage enemy

3) Obliterate their entire fleet in the opening salvo

Even with the AI using moderate shield usage, you'll still obliterate them.

I haven't seen the melee phase since I stopped using a mix of weapons and only see the medium range phase if the enemy dies in the third salvo of beam fire and one of their ships takes an exorbitant amount of time exploding (there are several animations possible, one of them is like 8 seconds long).

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Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 12, 2012, 3:07:01 PM

/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/8777-best-game-i-have-had-in-a-long-time!

If you guys wanna play my latest game, and why i feel like you still can get into the short range phase with ease.

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ronin313

Newcomer

ronin313

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 12, 2012, 1:27:09 PM

Well after reading everyone's comments it still sounds like long and medium range dominate and the battles never get to short.

I still think that ship design and card choice tends to be quite repetitive once you know what you are doing.

With this factor, i.e. warping in, ambushes whatever it means that both the player and the AI can plan to a degree, but there is a 'luck' factor that comes into play that neither can really prepare for.

This means that variation in ship design and weapon choice will yield more consistent results than someone just stacking up on missles and beams esp towards end game. Or you could stack kinetics and pray you engage at short range!

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Thomas.Trainor

Newcomer

Thomas.Trainor

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 7:33:58 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
Not reaching melee range? what game you been playing?

I frequently make it there in my current games, the time where i don't is because the bloody AI won't equip shields or much anti-missile.

On normal difficulty +90% of battles I'm in end during Long. Its usually either completely one sided or M.A.D. with one side launching missiles, getting destroyed in hail of beams and the missiles once impacting scrapping everything but the omni-defence battleship designed to keep the hero alive.

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Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:39:26 PM

I'am on newbie, the AI with no advantages.

As the games AI is all the same, but all of the higher levels they get extra resources.

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LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:35:23 PM

Okay, in my experience battles tend to end around medium range at most.

I haven't really tried the higher difficulty levels. I hover around Normal, which is generally any game's primary balance concern.

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Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:28:13 PM

Not reaching melee range? what game you been playing?

I frequently make it there in my current games, the time where i don't is because the bloody AI won't equip shields or much anti-missile.

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ronin313

Newcomer

ronin313

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 9:01:01 AM

This will allow different types of ship designs to prevail depending on how encounters play out.

Right now it starts Long --> Med --> Short

Randomizing this would add more variety and uncertainty i.e less predicatability.

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Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:11:55 PM

I am not sure i agree either.

The game is currently balanced via the normal method of attacking and this type of change could easily lead that to ruin.

However i would be up for different types of battles: skirmishing: X rounds of long-range.

but getting into-close range should still require going through long and medium ranges as kinetics are the most damaging mod in that range.

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DarkStar

Newcomer

DarkStar

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:11:20 PM

I have made a similar suggestion, like long -> med -> short -> short -> med -> long. Which is more realistic as ships passed by each other. This may be too much to ask, but maybe for 1.5 or expansion...add on fighter battles before the big fleet battle to occur. If a player invest in fighter technologies, then players have an option to damage an enemy fleet before the actually battle. If the enemy fleet has fighters too, then there is a battle. You can modify fighters with the same missiles, lasers, kinetics. Adjust ratio of fighters to bombers...where bombers will hurt the enemy fleet more, but weak against enemy bombers.

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LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 5:02:39 PM

Thomas.Trainor wrote:
I really dislike this idea:

a) It will go even farther to promote Beam dominance as Beams are the best all around weapons.

b) Battles starting at close range may end before enough damage is done by either side.

c) It makes no logical sense. Space is big and you see enemies coming from hundreds of thousands of km away.

a) I don't see how this further promotes beams. Heavy beam use is countered by heavy shield use.

b) At least my side of the suggestion doesn't alter the amount of phases. All battles would last three phases regardless of range. Plus the short arrival phase, of course.

c) Fleets clearly warp into combat, so there's nothing to "see" coming in real space. Attackers warp in at least, as it stands. But it could be defenders in this case as well if the defending admiral got away with choosing the ranges. After all, beyond some under-the-hood mechanics, the attacker/defender difference is only nominal. Defenders warping in on an attacking force would imply an ambush.

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Thomas.Trainor

Newcomer

Thomas.Trainor

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 4:44:18 PM

I really dislike this idea:

a) It will go even farther to promote Beam dominance as Beams are the best all around weapons.

b) Battles starting at close range may end before enough damage is done by either side.

c) It makes no logical sense. Space is big and you see enemies coming from hundreds of thousands of km away.

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LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 4:41:05 PM

Well, you can't plan as well if you lack a trained hero, but it keeps you on your toes as far as card selection is concerned. I mean, with the current system I often find myself selecting the same three cards over and over (against the AI at least), with only minor alterations every now and then.

For example, the admiral of a missile-oriented fleet would try to keep himself at long range to minimize the impact of non-missile weaponry. To counter that, his enemy would have to prioritize flak defenses and fire back with missiles of his own (or beams, if he predicts his adversary will think he'll use missiles himself and set up defenses accordingly). Conversely, the admiral of a kinetics-focused battle group would strive to remain at short range to maximize the damage of his guns. His opponent would do well to keep his armour research up to date, and either counter with the same guns or beams or even missiles, if he thinks he can surprise the enemy with that at close range.

I don't think statistical balance would have to change much or at all to accommodate for this change. This affects decision-making more than the specific workings of each weapon type, and breathes more life into the card system without specifically tinkering with it. If anything, the bulk of the work of this modification would go into AI, so that computer players can cope with the expanded variables.

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MODNosferatiel

Informer

"God's in his heaven, all's right with the world." Nerv Motto, Neon Genesis Evangelion

MODNosferatiel

Informer

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 4:06:10 PM

I'm not sure how to balance the weapon types damage, then, though. You can't plan ahead then, anymore and it adds a new degree of freedom to balancing.

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LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

LordShadow

Sheredyn Guardian

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 2:07:38 PM

I like this suggestion as well, and might I add that it be linked to new hero traits. An admiral with those would be able to choose the starting distance and progression. Further stages of the trait would allow more options, like starting and staying at the same distance throughout the three phases (LLL, MMM, SSS), whose number should remain unchanged. If both admirals were equally qualified, I guess their stats would determine who wins in this regard.

This system would pleasantly expand the depth of combat, and make kinetic weapons more useful past the early game. At present they take the backseat rather quickly, despite the fact all weapon types should remain effective throughout the game.

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Luxor

Newcomer

Luxor

Newcomer

13 years ago

Jul 7, 2012, 11:36:55 AM

I like.

Every suggestion that brings more variety into battles and forces the player to use more different ship setups are very welcome for me.

But how do you think should it work? If the battle starts at Med, will it only last two battle phases or what? Sounds a bit short.

Instead I can imagine a system where you start at an random distance and run through three battle phases depending on the start distance.

Long -> Med -> Short

Med-> Short -> Med

Short -> Med -> Long

This would create more different conditions your ships have to be prepared for.

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