Change deflectors to reduce damage. - Endless Space

Change deflectors to reduce damage.

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Draco18s

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Draco18s

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13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 2:23:43 PM

vyolin wrote:
@ Ign: The reason you get past the first phase of battle is obvious with regards to your faction: High HP and Defense let your ships live longer to see the later phases while reduced accuracy gives the enemy the same benefit.

Basically you have longer fights because neither you nor your enemy manage to reliably hit anything.

That combined with a all-around weapon loadout. I see 3 missiles, 4 beams, and 1 kinetics on the primary attack ship, plus 5 of each defense tech (plus Intelligent Tools and two S2G bombardment weapons). The support ship has 2 of each defense, 5 beams, and 2 support modules (Intelligent Tools and High Energy Couplings).

1) Mixed weapons is downright inferiour to an all-out loadout. You might as well go all-out beams, as that's already your primary damage dealer.

2) The AI defending fleet is using 100% kinetics, making the tonage spent on shields and flak dead weight.

3) Intelligent Tools is dead weight, at this point, as the Repair card played in the non-existent third phase (that is, you'll no longer reach the melee round, thus you can play whatever you want and it will always succeed) will do more repair than the module.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:57:18 AM

Yeah I have no clue what you just said.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:00:26 AM

Wait...what part should I retype?

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:03:14 AM

Specifically I don't know what "your enemy AI" could refer to, and generally I can't tell what point you're trying to make.

The only even theoretical way I can think of that combat could go past 1 phase is if the two fleets almost cancel each other out, AND have quite a few HP modules. Otherwise one of them dies, really fast. The chances of that occurring are obviously kinda low..

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:06:01 AM

In my games me and the AI frequently duke it out to at least the second phase.

I could upload some of my ship schismatic's, empire perks and enemy ship statistics if you would like?

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:09:36 AM

Sure. Even when I design ships with hardly any attack, the AI's designs are so lacking so I still obliterate them

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:22:52 AM

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gameshoes

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 4:28:22 AM

I'm down for this. I don't understand the opposition to this, it'll actually allow the Kinetics to deal damage.

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vyolin

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vyolin

Old Fanatic

13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 1:13:46 PM

@ Ign: The reason you get past the first phase of battle is obvious with regards to your faction: High HP and Defense let your ships live longer to see the later phases while reduced accuracy gives the enemy the same benefit.

Basically you have longer fights because neither you nor your enemy manage to reliably hit anything.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:54:14 AM

Then your enemy AI is truly worthless.

Not on a larger scale, if anything it just acts like refreshable HP for energy weapons, and once multiple shits are added, well....your AI centrally does use shields on ships, and im guessing you have seen its effect.

Frankly i want the while lot of defenses scraped and redone, but im making do with what i have got.

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vyolin

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vyolin

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13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 2:48:49 PM

Cards of skipped rounds no longer have any effect, do they? The rest still holds true, though.

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Nodor

Forgotten Guardian

Nodor

Forgotten Guardian

13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 2:49:46 PM

As a fan of the Omni-tank setup, I would argue that some of each defense is a good thing - especially on hulls larger than destroyers.
I concur on the "pick a weapon" for your fleet. - Beams benefiting the most from Hero boosts.
As someone with omni-tank builds, I also frequently reach round 3. Especially when my 3-4 dreadnaughts are facing 10+ships.
I would also not characterize repair modules as dead weight, more like "extremely useful". Additive healing is good in a tight spot.
Not killing all your foes in the initial pass means they attack you next round. Which can mean more XP.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 4:00:46 PM

By now i already know what will be more efficient, and what will win the game in 1 phase.

But that's not fun, i set up my races like this because it makes the game fun, really really fun!

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Draco18s

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Draco18s

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13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 4:43:06 PM

vyolin wrote:
Cards of skipped rounds no longer have any effect, do they? The rest still holds true, though.

Based on my most recent experience (admitted about two weeks ago), Nano-repair bots still worked in "skipped" phases as their entire effect takes place at the START of the phase.

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RenegadePeon

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RenegadePeon

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13 years ago

Jul 30, 2012, 3:21:20 PM

Personally, I think kinetic defense should be slightly reduced. It should be the only defense where offense is stronger than defense.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 30, 2012, 3:32:28 PM

I wouldn't mint to blocking shots if it were a %, especially due to the inaccuracy issues.

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Drendil

Senior Lifter

Drendil

Senior Lifter

13 years ago

Jul 30, 2012, 5:49:07 PM

+1 for the OP suggestion to make deflectors reduce dmg instead of blocking shots

Atm rank 1 deflectors can block higher rank kinetics too well, making at least me skip that entire tech tree in each game and just steamroll everything with beams. Granted, beams are far better due to many other reasons too (as stated in this thread, but baby steps, baby steps :P)

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Draco18s

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Draco18s

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13 years ago

Jul 30, 2012, 5:52:59 PM

Drendil wrote:
+1 for this suggestion

Which bit, making deflectors direct damage reduction (which, technically, they already are) or one of the other suggestions present in this thread?

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:06:16 AM

what +attack%?

I don't know what your referring to.

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Stalker0

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Stalker0

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 11:40:07 PM

I don't think the shields are specifically the problem. Its this.....plus the fact that beams have the highest overall accuracy in the first 2 phases of combat, which is where 90% of battles occur. If beam accuracy was adjusted, I don't know if shield would need to be changed.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 11:58:29 PM

Beams are effective yes, but that isn't apart of the proposal.

My proposal is to change the Deflectors to reduce damage instead of outright blocking shots...if they even hit.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 12:52:15 AM

Well OK but this wouldn't change anything in the current game.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 12:54:37 AM

What do you mean? Kinetics would always be doing a small amount of damage, as the current defense can effectively cancel out all kinetics.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 12:55:56 AM

If they worked like shields they'd still cancel out all the damage because kinetics have no accuracy. Currently, +defence has 100% effectiveness on kinetic defences. +attack has 0%. This would change nothing for defence, and bring +attack effectiveness to 20%. It wouldn't matter.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 12:58:37 AM

They do have accuracy its just poor accuracy, if anything the fact their accuracy is poor just gives my idea more of a reason.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:03:45 AM

No, it makes it of less import. Currently, +attack% has 50% effectiveness on beams, and 0% on kinetics - that's why beams are best (plus of course the base %s are 50 to 20). All this would change is have +attack% for kinetics change to 20%. It would help, but very little and certainly wouldn't change any of the current dynamics of combat. Kinetics would still have a terrible base weapon:defence ratio.

The day combat ever goes past the first phase there'll be a point in looking at kinetics.

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CmdrNoval

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CmdrNoval

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:03:57 AM

smiley: approval

Nerf Kinetics Deflection a reasonable amount...

As I recall, Kinetics Deflection ability does not start at 100%, but grows with the Technology... In an endgame scenerio, and when the techs researched, that 100% blocking may become an issue... (It seems to me, that it would not actually be possible to deflect every single solitary bullet...)

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 9:54:30 PM

One of the reasons beam weapons are seen as being soo much more powerful then kinetics is due to how anti-kinetic defenses work

Anti-beam defenses reduce incoming damage by a numbered amount which is good as it does simulate a shields HP

However deflectors (Anti-kinetic defenses) outright block incoming shots, so i propose that deflectors should be changed to a % damage reduction so that when all else fails, two empires are still able to get through defenses if only by a small amount.

'Won't glass cannoning become more of a thing then?'

Not if the % amount is high enough and scales accordingly.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:07:24 AM

Igncom1 wrote:
what +attack%?

I don't know what your referring to.

....+attack% effectively doesn't work on kinetics and missiles.

It's the only reason to change them? Why else would you bring this up?

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:07:53 AM

CmdrNoval wrote:
Nerf Kinetics Deflection a reasonable amount...

As I recall, Kinetics Deflection ability does not start at 100%, but grows with the Technology... In an endgame scenerio, and when the techs researched, that 100% blocking may become an issue... (It seems to me, that it would not actually be possible to deflect every single solitary bullet...)

By end game kinetic deflectors overly counter kinetic weapons, and that's assuming if ever shell hits, when they don't.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:09:01 AM

Igncom1 wrote:
By end game kinetic deflectors overly counter kinetic weapons, and that's assuming if ever shell hits, when they don't.

If beams and kinetics were both given 100% accuracy, and there was no +attack or defence in play, kinetics would currently be superior actually. It's the accuracy and +attack not scaling to opposing +defence that kills them, not deflectors.

Currently:

Gluon Disruptor v Ablative Wave Shield goes

210 average damage at 20 tons vs 250 shield at 18 tons.

AGN Slugs vs Impenetrable Hulls goes

294 average damage in 42 projectiles at 20 tons vs 45 projectiles absorbed at 18 tons.

So, the shields absorb more per module relative to the gluons. Kinetics also do more damage.

In short, if +attack vs +defence worked the same for both, at equal accuracy kinetics would be straight up superior.

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Igncom1

Craver

Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:19:21 AM

Velaux wrote:
If beams and kinetics were both given 100% accuracy, and there was no +attack or defence in play, kinetics would currently be superior actually. It's the accuracy and +attack not working really that kills them, not deflectors.

The accuracy problem is by design, but that still leaves defenses having a really stupid way of countering kinetics, effectively making them worthless.

Here we see the Tech 2 Kinetic defense totally countering the kinetic weapon due to how it works, blocking shots.

So I am proposing that we change it to a % form of the energy defense so kinetic weapons can do gradual damage over all 3 phases despite their natural inaccuracy.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:35:10 AM

Igncom1 wrote:
The accuracy problem is by design, but that still leaves defenses having a really stupid way of countering kinetics, effectively making them worthless.

My point is that they are overly countered because of kinetics accuracy and lack of +attack scaling. If their accuracy was 50% and +attack added projectiles, they would be better than beams.

While this proposal would change the lack of +attack scaling, it would not change the accuracy, which is currently the biggest problem. If combat lasted longer it would be different, but it doesn't.

Here we see the Tech 2 Kinetic defense totally countering the kinetic weapon due to how it works, blocking shots.

Uh yeah? A shield totally counters a laser too, what's your point?

So I am proposing that we change it to a % form of the energy defense so kinetic weapons can do gradual damage over all 3 phases despite their natural inaccuracy.

Again, it's pointless because there is effectively only one phase, in which kinetics are dreadful. Fiddling with kinetics vs deflects is pointless so long as combat has only long range.

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Igncom1

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Infantry win firefights. Tanks win battles. Artillery win wars.

Igncom1

Craver

13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:40:04 AM

If your only getting one phase, then good for you.

But it is not hard nor difficult to get into the 3rd phase of combat, i do it regularly even with destroyers, arguing that there is no point in the change because you don't get to the 3rd phase of combat is ridiculous.

And energy shields only block an amount of damage of energy weapons, deflectors block the entire shot, period.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:48:37 AM

Igncom1 wrote:
If your only getting one phase, then good for you.

But it is not hard nor difficult to get into the 3rd phase of combat, i do it regularly even with destroyers, arguing that there is no point in the change because you don't get to the 3rd phase of combat is ridiculous.

You certainly seem to be the only person on this forum who manages it so..personally I don't get past 2 rounds even with 5 weapons on a fleet of battleships.

And energy shields only block an amount of damage of energy weapons, deflectors block the entire shot, period.

The first shield blocks the entire damage of lasers. The effect is identical.

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