"Bigger" Weapons

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:55:11 PM

Indeed, as even modern destroyers are designed not to get to get hit as most could easily get 1 hit killed by large guns.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:30:20 PM

If they ever do include a super weapon, i feel like they really need to capture the fear that were produced in the 20th century from the threat of nuclear annihilation.

The horror of such weapons possibly leading their use to a decrease of everyone's FIDS as people realize just how horrific the weapons are.

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:55:25 PM

Well actually you propose a ship build around a weapon

I know the feeling too Obak newer better weapons turn the old ones obsolete. Now you can prevent that by adding abilitys to weapons, meaning that even an old weapon would be competitive (like Moo's Ion Cannon-burning ship systems). Now with super weapons the only way to prevent a spammage is limiting them to the bigger classes and limit how many you can add on each ship (for super weapons i strongly support 1 per ship and only on the big ones).

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 4:34:41 PM

Or design a ship hull that is the weapon.

like an available 200 tonnage for the Novalith Cannon.

http://sinsofasolarempire.wikia.com/wiki/Novalith_Cannon

A separate hull just for the weapon?

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Nomas

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 4:47:41 PM

Since i didnt play Sins much i had in mind a same weapon from Gundam Igloo series but anyways no matter.

That would actually be a mobile weapon platform and not an actual ship.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 4:52:41 PM

Well, yeah.

The Moo2 stellar converter as a ship, instead of a weapon to put on a ship.

An effective siege and anti-heavy weapon, massive overkill on destroyers but still kinda funny.

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 4:58:04 PM

That thing must stay in max range and never get close to battle and nowdays battles in ES dont help much

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gameshoes

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 6:55:15 PM

Say, what would you guys think if there was a cap on how many times you can put these on a ship?

Like say, the Heavy Kinetic Cannon can only be placed once on a destroyer/corvette, twice on a Cruiser/Battleship and perhaps four times on a Deadnought.

I don't know how well these "Bigger Weapons" would work in practice, but I would like to limit any possible chance of exploiting them.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 7:02:54 PM

Personally id say that these weapons should take like....100, 150 tonnage?

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ghostfox1

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ghostfox1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:20:52 PM

My thought on the matter is that the 'superweapons'(either faction unique or one massive railgun/beam laser/massive swarm missile bank or whatever else) should weigh at least 100 tons, and only be able to be put on a single ship once, no matter what. Also that they be limited to the final two ship classes, or the dreadnaught and a new ship if that was possible.

I also think there should be more unique weapons in the middle of the tech tree.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:23:54 PM

Well there is so such thing as a super weapon in a 4X game.

But 1 weapon ships would seem to indicate a weapon as large as the ship.

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ghostfox1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:33:02 PM

I didn't know what else to call them. And what do you mean? I'm saying you could have other weapons, just only one of the big ones per ship so it doesn't overpower them. Endgame dreadnaught is about 660 tons? that would be 6 of the giant weapons(at 100 tons each), and that seems terribly game breaking.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:37:17 PM

6 Big guns, but a weapon big enough to be justified for 1 per ship would be strong enough to kill a proper defended battleship in a few shots, justification that these weapons are either highly specialized, impractical or inaccurate.

And what kind of mad man makes a dreadnaught into a glass cannon! lol

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ghostfox1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:52:13 PM

I would. In a heartbeat. I'm picturing some sort of death star type laser, or more properly such as on the eclipse(google it if you don't get the reference, basically giant ship mounted planet cracking laser), blowing away a destroyer per turn. Or a giant swarm of missiles going around defenses. Or a giant railgun hulling a smaller ship, or nearly killing a large one.

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Obak

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Obak

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:27:26 PM

The problem with superweapons as I have seen them implemented in games thus far is that they tend to push out all other forms of weapons. For players of MoO2 I bet you all know that once the death-ray was discovered, every ship and its grandmother would sport one. I actually like ES shipbuilding, at the moment I am experimenting with using outdated forms of weapons just because they are dependent on certain minerals that I have monopoly on an can get at bargain prices.

What could be a cool trade-off is to have specific racial weapons that act as a complement to standard weapons, not just "extra powerfull laser 1.0" but slightly unique guns say like EMP canons, Molecular acid nanobots, Boarding pods etc. Weapons that would uniquely reflect each race view of waging war.

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ghostfox1

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13 years ago

Jul 22, 2012, 11:59:38 PM

So would there have to be more work done with evasion stats? Or roll a number and if it's below z, the shot missed. if between z and y, a glancing hit for a percent of the damage where the percent is how far between z and y, and if it's above y then the ship is destroyed(or severely damaged in the case of larger ships)? Granted, this would be for the giant laser/railgun. missiles would have to be done differently.

so basically

#
z<#
y<# = dead(or dying) ship

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 23, 2012, 12:04:04 AM

Considering their size, I imagine there would be no glancing shots, leaving the mechanic to be rather hit/miss.

Dreadnaughts would also be the opposite to this, considering their size.

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ghostfox1

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ghostfox1

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13 years ago

Jul 23, 2012, 12:13:11 AM

Granted, that was for the smaller ships. And I would think that at least if they had the appropriate defense it would help a little. Maybe even save the ship if there was enough defense on it.

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gameshoes

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 5:41:42 PM

As cool as big weapons are, I think you guys are thinking 'too big'.

I was thinking along the lines of limiting things just like some of the things in the support modules. I don't recall the names right now, but on two of the modules you can only have one of each. That's what I was aiming for.

Leave enough room for other things. Having 150 ton weapons would just make dreadnoughts 'glass cannons' which just seems odd.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 24, 2012, 5:59:31 PM

Well a 150 ton weapon would likely be the only gun on the ship (Well possibly 2 for dreads), leaving you with a weapon that can destroy ships in 1-3 shots, but has severe difficulty hitting anything small enough to be utterly annihilated by one.

But yes, you mean weapons that are most likely 2X the size.

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gameshoes

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 25, 2012, 5:55:33 PM

Igncom1 wrote:

But yes, you mean weapons that are most likely 2X the size.

I do not at all.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 25, 2012, 7:02:24 PM

Then what is the counter balance to their power?

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 25, 2012, 10:29:40 PM

100 or 150 it doesnt matter just place a limit of 1 per ship and can only armed on dreadnought. Unless as Ign said to make it a mobile platform. But if a Big Gun like this is ever implemented there must be a targeting system in combat, i would hate to see it wasting its shots on corvettes

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 25, 2012, 11:26:33 PM

Or a priority system, going from largest to smallest?

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gameshoes

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 26, 2012, 5:57:44 AM

I don't understand this at all. Why are you guys all caught up in with big-ass-super-weapons that will one-shot any enemy ship? These just have to be "bigger".

I shouldn't have posted down numbers, but I didn't want people's wild thoughts go towards "super weapons" which appears to be all for naught.

If you're trying to rationalize with the weaponry on warships today, then you've really stuck yourself in an odd place. This is fictional technology we're talking about and you guys are being held back by your 'logic'. We cannot make forward progress if you guys already have your minds boxed in. I'm attacking anybody, but really guys, c'mon.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 26, 2012, 6:00:26 AM

Yeah we did kind spiral off, sorry about that dude.

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gameshoes

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gameshoes

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12 years ago

Aug 3, 2012, 10:15:12 PM

Bumping just for kicks.

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Kuranes

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Kuranes

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 4:24:26 PM

What about doing the Master of Orion approach to "special" weapons, namely that each attatched weapon can have a few additional modifiers (which in turn increase the cost of the weapon). For instance in Master of Orion Missiles could get the following: ECCM (harder to scramble), Armoured (harder to shoot down), Fast (would reach the target faster), Battery (fire every other turn, but fires twice the missiles) and Warhead (which made the missile split into 4 minor warheads when close to target, to highten the chance of a hit)

Although only the Warhead and Fast Missiles, and arguably Batteries, could get smoothly implemented in Endless space, it still think its a thing worth exploring.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 7:22:44 PM

I like this idea and support it.

Im no balance man so i don't know about the specifics, but i always appreciate the idea of expanding the weapons set.

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Havoc

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Havoc

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 7:28:29 PM

More weapon options would indeed be fine. I'm missing a continuous beam weapon (long ray) and single powerful missiles (nukes).

Also more color variety for the beam weapons.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 7:38:34 PM

Taste the rainbow!

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 7:58:30 PM

Seeing projectile-like pieces of light is rather annoying. It's light, it would look like a beam! SotS has it too, which is surprising as they'll usually kinda hard on the horribly unrealistic stuff.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 8:03:09 PM

Its for fun, like how you can kinda hear the battle in Battlestar Galactica.

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Velaux

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Velaux

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 8:11:46 PM

Yeah but beams look cooler too :P

BSG often had no sound in space, actually. One of the only ones to do it. Was lovely.

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Igncom1

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 8:22:43 PM

Indeed, loved the music.

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Chibiabos

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Chibiabos

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 8:57:02 PM

A recent message from the developers indicates they plan to incorporate fighter craft, in which case we will need smaller weapons, not bigger. Could you imagine the current weapons trying to hit fighter craft?

Both would be ideal of course ... Big weapons should be slow to fire (maybe twice per round for beams and kinetics instead of four times, and maybe missiles don't land until one and a half rounds) and perhaps less accurate, smaller ones fire faster and more accurately but do less damage and are easier to repel.

I think accuracy should also depend on the size of the ship being targetted -- the smaller the ship, the harder to hit (fighters being hardest of all).

When they introduce fighters, maybe area of effect weapons are also in order.

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 9:02:58 PM

Flak interception along with dog-fighting should be sufficient in the task.

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 8:31:38 AM

I talked about bigger weapons and abilitys on another post so +1 from me again for that. Also i would like to suggest a maximum of weapon hardpoints on each ship. It gets ridiculous when i see the AI making ships only with weapons and no defence or support systems at all. Just weapons and shoot to kill for max dmg even if they all die. That i believe is the only reason, my battles at least, never go above phase 1 or 2.

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 8:59:39 AM

Yeah, its really hard to counter different weapons without the counter defense, that really annoys me.

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 11:02:29 AM

Even just eye-candy for higher tier tech would be awesome

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 1:08:40 PM

To update my previous post i just made a break from a game with Hissho. There must really be a limit on weapons per ship or per number of fleets, the AI keeps attacking with kamikaze tactics

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 18, 2012, 5:50:05 PM

This comes from my Discussion thread:

https://www.games2gether.com/endless-space/forum/28-game-design/thread/11215-discussion-gameshoes-s-list-of-combat-related-ship-specialization

"Bigger" Weapons

So I've observed that Beam weapons are pretty much the go-to weapon. So why not throw in some more that may balance things out?

What I have in mind for these is for larger variants of the current weapons. These will be very heavy (like say 35 weight for the first level), so putting them on destroyers isn't such a hot idea despite the 25% weight reduction. I'm thinking that the heavier ships (2 CP and up) should get a 10% weight reduction on these. These weapons will have three versions on the tech tree instead of having a better one each level.

Heavy Kinetic Cannon

Accurate at all ranges, hard hitting kinetic weapon, and it cannot be blocked, but it shoots slowly (I'm going for 4 shots per battle phase). Deals +20% damage against 1 CP ships. This is meant for heavier class ships to take out those pesky destroyers.
Ion Beam Cannon

Only works at melee range. Heavy hitting cannon that deals 10/13/16% of the target ship's hull over 4 seconds granted that it hits immediately and stays on target. Of course the beam shields will reduce the damage.
Swarm Missiles

This weapon will shoot a pod of fast-traveling missiles (say 4) that split into 4 more rockets (total of 16). Each missile damage is light, but the damage will increase by 5/7/9% per each missile that hits. Example: let's say we're using a level 1 swarm missile and 4 missiles make it through. We will then add the bonuses percentages together for each missile that made it through, in this case 4x5% = 20% increase in damage per each missile. So if we use some numbers and say that the missile hit for 20 damage each they would then be dealing 24 damage each.

The main purpose of these however are to waste the missile defenses and allow the heavier torpedoes to hit.

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 5:16:34 PM

Nomas wrote:
To update my previous post i just made a break from a game with Hissho. There must really be a limit on weapons per ship or per number of fleets, the AI keeps attacking with kamikaze tactics

It's really funny seeing the AI pump out Dreadnoughts without a single bit of defense.

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suth2436

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suth2436

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13 years ago

Jul 19, 2012, 5:35:36 PM

I support the notion of "big" weapons, if only because I think it would be interesting to see certain specialized versions of the three existing weapon trees get guns that fall somewhat outside of their purview, like the suggested heavy railgun that is slow firing but accurate at all ranges (as opposed to rapid-fire, inaccurate kinetic weapons) and a short range "cutting beam" for beams. As it stands right now, I feel the weapon trees, though there are three of them, are more or less static. The only thing that changes as you progress through the tree are the numbers.

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Nomas

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Jul 19, 2012, 8:23:08 PM

gameshoes wrote:
It's really funny seeing the AI pump out Dreadnoughts without a single bit of defense.

True, its kill before you go down yourself. At least missiles right now aim one target otherwise i would be doomed! oO'

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gameshoes

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 2:55:09 AM

suth2436 wrote:
As it stands right now, I feel the weapon trees, though there are three of them, are more or less static. The only thing that changes as you progress through the tree are the numbers.

I was planning on these being integrated into those existing trees but as points where players can't "skip" the tech. Because you know taht there are some branches of the tree that can let you skip getting level 3 weapons and skip right to 6 (or something like that). Stick these weapons in those spots and we should see some more dynamic gameplay instead of watching players skip the lower tech weapons.

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 3:05:30 AM

Heavy Weapons (designed to counter Dreadnought Class Ships)

Swarm Missles (from Op, to counter missle defenses)

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 4:20:21 AM

CmdrNoval wrote:
Heavy Weapons (designed to counter Dreadnought Class Ships)

We don't exactly need a counter to Dreadnought ships. Since the Dreadnought doesn't get any weight reduction on any module, you're better off just building lower class ships.

Plus I believe that Torpedoes should be the answer to large ships, not heavy rounds.

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 7:18:03 AM

Heavy weapons are able to penetrate heavy defenses, if they were only good at killing smaller ships we would end up having wars between impenetrable titans.

Still, once heavy weapons are in, the only real counter to the them would be Statecraft.

Anybody else see how this matches actual history?

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Nomas

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 9:57:23 AM

I propose WWII tacts, torpedo bombers closing fast to hit heavy slow ships

Usually heavy weapons are slow firing and not good at hitting small and plenty of targets. Often used to make a big hit where it hurts more. Thus it would be nice if big,heavy weapons can only equiped on the the larger classes (titan anyone???)

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suth2436

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 12:55:23 PM

gameshoes wrote:
I was planning on these being integrated into those existing trees but as points where players can't "skip" the tech. Because you know taht there are some branches of the tree that can let you skip getting level 3 weapons and skip right to 6 (or something like that). Stick these weapons in those spots and we should see some more dynamic gameplay instead of watching players skip the lower tech weapons.

I like this idea, especially if these weapon technologies were interspersed between these "focal points", let's call them, where it is possible to skip 3 or 4 weapon techs if your research ability is high enough. It would make players have to weigh their options. Get the fancy new toy, or skip to more powerful weapons at the loss of versatility?

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Igncom1

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Jul 20, 2012, 1:20:35 PM

Nomas wrote:
I propose WWII tacts, torpedo bombers closing fast to hit heavy slow ships

Usually heavy weapons are slow firing and not good at hitting small and plenty of targets. Often used to make a big hit where it hurts more. Thus it would be nice if big,heavy weapons can only equiped on the the larger classes (titan anyone???)

Well they are usually bad at hitting many targets, but by medium or short range you wont have an issue with accuracy.

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:34:19 PM

Igncom1 wrote:
Well they are usually bad at hitting many targets, but by medium or short range you wont have an issue with accuracy.

Exactly my point. Super weapons must be super but not that super. A massive rail gun for instance can be very inaccurate at long distance but deadly at close and can add a bonus to invasions perhaps. Also with big weapons in general there must be a limit of 1 per ship and only in the big ones for example.

You could also pick when you want them to shoot like with a battle card

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Igncom1

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13 years ago

Jul 20, 2012, 1:48:18 PM

Woah, I mean heavy weapons on like, a RL battleship not a super weapon!

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