After few game, a I love the concept of combats, with cards, but invasion will be a little slow and... not realy impressive. Put few ships in orbit of a system and let them take.



Why not a similar combat system for invasion. Few phases, with new cards (unlock with technology). And for instance guerilla action (destruction of industrial, dust, food... structures/upgrades), or an anhiliation action, destruction of a planet (like death star... :cool.





By advance, please excuse me foor my poor english , and knowledge about all mechanism of game

This thread is the origin of all invasion combat system discussions.

Other threads about this have been archived:

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13168-suggestion-animated-invasion

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13565-composite-suggestion-land-battles

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13265-ground-combat

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13319-suggestion-achievable-ground-combat

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13360-composite-suggestion-invasion-improvement-i-d-like-to-see

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13391-suggestion-on-blockades-invasions

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13473-ground-combat

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13541-suggestion-orbital-bombardment-choices

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13581-suggestion-ground-battles

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13543-composite-suggestion-invasion-mods-and-techs

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13637-suggestion-an-easy-way-to-make-invasions-awesome-d

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13706-suggestion-invasions-orbital-bombardment

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13708-suggestion-a-new-invading-option-i-think-it-is-very-good-enter-please

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13734-suggestion-attacking-enemy-star-systems-planets-populations-directly

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13767-orbital-bombardment-invasion-planetary-defenses.

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13849-star-system-bombardment-attack-defense-combat-phases

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13933-suggestion-improve-ground-combat

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13942-moo3-like-combat-implementation



Feel free to post here about this topic here and inform yourself about the variations the threads listed above have already discussed, but don't open new suggestion threads for anything alike.

Ok, my thoughts on Ground Assault



The old system should still be there, but slowed down as a cheaper and safer alternative as a kind of blockade/siege where the planet will surrender given enough time, prolonged by the defenses + provisions of the planet. (Possible Extra: huge malus to defense if population is starving) the Invasion of planets in my opinion should just add to the blockade section of the original invasion as a planet will not be able to destroy the ships in orbit and it's just either a delaying tactic or a chance to steam-roller through some poor people. It would be possible that if you invade a system and they are constantly defeating your pathetic invasion armies that it would take longer because they're winning too many battles to keep their morale up.



When you make a ground assault against someone it's because you want to finish this alot sooner then normal (and Big Explosions) so I believe the main focus on the Invading army is to remove the system's ability defend itself by removing pieces of it's MP it gained from Population and Defense improvements. The more MP removed in the invasion the less time the blockade will require to pacify the system. If you remove all of it? GG



The ships you have in Orbit are essentially going to be busy bombarding the military bases of the planet, there is potential to have a tactic card that uses the fleet during the battle but it shouldn't be represented in each ground assault.



As the military power for the agressor is defined by Invasion modules of the ships you build (other people have added the idea of making Transport ships that could have -40% tonnage cost for Invasion modules), to make the ground assault make sense in a sort of Mirror of the space combat the Invasion modules could be seperated into types:



+ Melee

+ Mid-Range

+ Long Range



For the Defending Planets there should be a 3-way slider that the empire/planet follow incase of an invasion (can't be changed during an invasion) this would also have 3 defense types, each one dedicated to resisting one of the invasion types. It would also prevent having to create alot of seperate kinds of defense improvements.



In this system, the invaders are the Lasers,Kinetics and Missiles where as the Planet are using nothing but Deflectors,Shields and Flak. Obviously it'd look much better if the 'Missiles' are planes that get shot down, and the kinetics that bounce off of the 'trenches' are grunts getting shot.



There is a good case for and against having Invasion modules 1-off like the colonisation modules, however it would just boil down to the effectiveness of the armies. Shall they be very powerful and expensive to cut down on Battle time between turns, or more a constant but weaker force wearing the enemy down?



This does have the problem that new modules will both make the invasion section of the ship builder much longer and there would be need for alot more space in the military tech tree (though possibly using some of the research points with single weapons)



A valid point was made that there should be some bonus to an invasion modules power from researching better weapons automatically



This set-up does mean that their should be different tactic cards for defender and invaders or atleast renamed cards that are similar.



An Example from hideously stealing from the space starting cards:



Ok I'm going to call the Melee -> Infantry, Mid -> Tanks and Long -> Planes



Attacker:

Tactics: Charge! -% enemy interception of Infantry -% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: Smokescreen -% enemy interception of Mid -% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Commandos -% enemy interception of Air -% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Evasive Manuevers -% enemy interception of ALL and -% Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Stay on Target! +% enemy interception of ALL and +% Accuracy (Counters Tactics)



Defender:

Tactics: Snipers +% interception of Infantry +% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: EMP Mines +% interception of Mid +% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Blackout +% interception of Air +% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Get Down -% interception of ALL and -% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Death or Glory +% interception of ALL and +% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Tactics)



So in summary:

Keep old 'Siege Bloackade' system.

Invasions remove MP from the defending system

Invasion Combat is purely Offense vs Defense.

Change Invasion Modules into 3 types: Melee,Mid,Long.

Will require new Combat Cards

Possible to Copy+Rename Combat cards for Offense/Defense.

To be honest I still find it funny there arn't any ground based weapons capable of taking out spacecraft.

Combat_Koala wrote:
To be honest I still find it funny there arn't any ground based weapons capable of taking out spacecraft.

Or orbital, or even system defenders.

Satellite based Ion cannons and gravity manipulation of nearby asteroid belts...

Hey guys.



I would start with this. Game is very good but what I miss in it is ground atacks.

By this I mean when you do blocade with yours ships on planet we see slow progresing around the planet line that is changeing color. When it change from for example red to blue player blue gets the planet. Now my sugestion is to add posibility to fight with ground forces on the planet. The idea of it is inspired/copy? :> from MOO3.

With curent battle system paper scisors and rock ( this battle cards) its should be easy.

I will try in next line describe how should it work. Ofc its open idea and better or upgrade ideas of this first would be even more than welcome.

But lets go to conclusion.



---When you win space battle and you blocade a planet you can start invasion on planet. (choice from manual atack or auto atack)

---When you click on invasion opction you will see window with planet and options " how to atack"

---(for example decoy atack, flank atack, front atack, atack from orbit, positional fighting, slow atack, fast atack(dont look on military casualties) etc etc the posibilites are endless

--- planetary fight should take more than 1 turn ( if player or AI dont poses huge amount of forces etc like in space battle --- space ship power.

--- in planetary fight player would be able to chose 3 cards like in space combat -- for example altirery atack +20% to infrastructure lose 10% organization for military lose / all cards would have their counter cards -->deep fortification +25% to recovery and 5% to suprise attack.

--- when players and AI would chose their cards ground fight starts. The battle system would be identical to this in space combat.

--- player would see planet splited to regions with borders or cartography planet with lines streight and up crossing each other. Like in atlas map is or in any other map

--- as the fight progress player would see regions geting from red (AI) to blue (player) or blue to red (colors depends ofc on color nations that we chose on start of the game)

--- during this regions fight player would hear informations from the battlefield from ground comander. (for example to this altiery atack " they are suprised we destroy their defense lines" or " they were preapered atack dont succesed." other option is to see this information in chat mesage.

--- after fight player would see region swaped blue and red color status and some planet destroy grafic efects like shell holes after altirery atack etc. and some of this efects during combat ofc ;]

--- when all regions are in 1 color planet is conquered. /there is posibility if ground atack dont succesed atacing forces are pushed back to space ships and only blocade is active event on this planet system.





Posible cards



Front Attack vs Entrench - entrenched troops have the advantage

Flank Attack vs Entrench - entrenched troops are in deep troubles

Orbital vs Entrench - Entrench and orbital barrage both succed (idea by Krantz86)



Attacker Events:

- Pillage building: +X FIDS based on highest cost building OR -10% invasion speed for 3 turns.

- Scorched Earth: +20% invasion speed OR +10% system ownership at end of invasion (success only).

- Biological Weapons: +25% invasion speed and - diplomacy with all races OR -10% invasion speed on this planet and + diplomacy with other races.



Defender Events:

- Sabotage: Destroy most expensive building to set invasion back X OR +10% enemy invasion speed.

- Patricians: Lose 1 population and set invasion back X OR +15% enemy invasion speed.

- Subversion: Increase enemy invasion speed by 30% and decrease enemy ownership growth by 20% OR reduce enemy invasion speed by 5%.

(idea by Deathdealer)



Attacker:

Tactics: Charge! -% enemy interception of Infantry -% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: Smokescreen -% enemy interception of Mid -% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Commandos -% enemy interception of Air -% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Evasive Manuevers -% enemy interception of ALL and -% Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Stay on Target! +% enemy interception of ALL and +% Accuracy (Counters Tactics)



Defender:

Tactics: Snipers +% interception of Infantry +% Damage from Tanks (Counters Engineering)

Engineering: EMP Mines +% interception of Mid +% Damage from Planes (Counters Sabotage)

Sabotage: Blackout +% interception of Air +% Damage from Infantry (Counters Defense)

Defense: Get Down -% interception of ALL and -% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Offense)

Offense: Death or Glory +% interception of ALL and +% Enemy Accuracy (Counters Tactics)

(idea by Yzaxtol)



Alternative solutions



- Scrap the events. Ground combat shouldn't be as detailed as space combat, it needs to be simpler and cleaner. If combat in space doesn't have it then the odds are pretty decent that it shouldn't be in ground combat either.

- Replace the battle map with a 2-D system map (or use the existing 3-D one if it's easier). Have the 'regions' as planets and simply show a slow progression of colour change from the enemy faction colour to your own. Explosions would be nice but not necessary. I suspect what would happen if you broke it down into regions on planets that the entire thing would simply take too long.

- Keep the cards limited but varied. I reckon 3 attack options, 3 defence options (think attack, subvert, feint) and 4 unlocks (2 attack, 2 defence - think orbital bombardment, large-scale chemical/biological) should be more than enough.

- Don't mess around with planes, tanks, infantry, mechs etc. Just toss in a large 'invasion' module like others have suggested (don't muck around with different types unless you're talking 'big' and 'bigger') and keep it simple. Remember that the AI has to be able to use the system as well so the simpler the better.

- Have a 'blow target population up', similar to the raze system mechanic they asked if we wanted on G2G not too long back, that bypasses ground combat and simply destroys everything.

(Idea by Veneke)



Definitely, definitely include radio-transmissions from the front line.





how it change game in my opinion ?



- game would be more interesitng and have more deep in game connection.

- hearing ground comander reporting how fight is progresing was best part in my experience in Moo3

- pushing option DESTROY FROM ORBIT was so fun button.



Changes



- in reasearch tree should be added cards for ground combat as space combat cards are added.

- new unite marines , mechs, tanks air planes for each civ.

- some new grafic for planets. It should not be hard because game already have grafic for planets just add to it some explosions effects

- ground combat only per 3 turns (deathdealer) or 1 planet per system (governor planet)



revard if planet is conquered.



--some revards would be nice like idd geting some tech from oponents but meaby only from planets where you are focused on science ?

--from planets focused on industry you would get some ships ? free building ?

--from gold focused planets meaby some dust bonus. (BIS_mar)



What is dont needed.



-- i am not sure if all planets should be conquered by this metthod. For example for each system player is selecting governor planet. If this planet is conquered all system is conquered.

-- there is no need for new space ship (like drop ship) there is already in game option for melee power of ship. This power would be space/tonage for ground forces.





Rules



- unites would be produced like space ships are.

- transporters - as optional unit as holder for ground units.

- ready units would be in baracks / like ready ships in hangar. --> waiting for deploy.

- fight system like scisor paper rock marines < tanks < mechs > marines ( developers and you guys would know best how to do it. )



Keep old 'Siege Bloackade' system.

Invasions remove MP from the defending system

Invasion Combat is purely Offense vs Defense.

Change Invasion Modules into 3 types: Melee,Mid,Long.

Will require new Combat Cards

Possible to Copy+Rename Combat cards for Offense/Defense.

(Yzaxtol)





to conclude.

I dont know if i can do this so sorry if i did something wrong but this link from you tube describe what i am thinking about.

part from 1:43 to 2:00 (I DONT OWN ANY PART OF THIS MOVIE. MOVIE IS NOT MY AND POSTED BY DANELLEYA) Its only movie that have this idea showed in it.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNJFRvn-YNg





best regards

Rafiozo



ps waiting for constructive disciusion

ps2 thread is geting bigger because i update ideas to this first post.

ps3 as the post due to time on forum went to archives and my talk with moderator cleared a bit of confiusions the post and the poll is stil ACTIVE ;]

you can still vote or post your ideas here or on this link



/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13942-moo3-like-combat-implementation

Rafiozo - Nice post. I am waiting to see what the dev's say about it before posting any of my ideas. I like what you've suggested there.

I think what's important for ground combat is... keeping it simple. We already have a very pretty space combat system, which should clearly be the focus.



So, what should a ground combat system provide, then? I think here are some points that should be involved:

1) Make ships matter - fleets are the heart of Endless Space, they need to have an active role.

2) Choice - obvious, have options that matter, in one way or another.

3) Trade-offs - the main part about conquering a planet is... choosing risk vs. reward, where the reward is probably speed of the invasion.

4) Keep the current blockade/siege system - it's quick and the visual feedback with the ring is good.

5) Except if you're coming in overwhelming force, it should take time (so the defender has a chance to scramble his/her fleets to defend the planet).



So the "alternate solution" by rafizio sounds very neat, but here are some ideas how I think it could work:

1) Have siege blockade as the slowest, but safest option. It's slowly laying siege to the planet, starving the defenders, spreading propaganda and taking over easy positions, step by step. Make that a separate button "Blockade".

2) As alternative, you can have a button "Invade", which opens a menu:

--> Ground-only assault: This lands your troops, invading them faster than the blockade, but has a chance of failing completely (your troops get ambushed, make no progress etc.).

--> Orbital fire support: Faster option, very reliable, but has a chance that ships get damaged/destroyed (they have to move into the line-of-sight of ground batteries).

--> Orbital bombardment: Fastest option, same chance for ship damage, but also has a chance to destroy facilities and guaranteed to kill at least one population.

3) Heroes would generally cause damage to ships in orbit (slowly, never enough to destroy them), representing them sneaking on-board, doing fighter runs and so on... a siege should be (potentially) costly to the aggressor as well.

Rafiozo - I absolutely love that idea! I hope it gets traction! It would certainly make invasion more satisfying and involving. I too miss the planetary bombardment and invasion style of the Master of Orion series.

What I'd like to see is actual feedback from the developers in this thread. I want to know if we are barking up the wrong tree.

Nasarog wrote:
What I'd like to see is actual feedback from the developers in this thread. I want to know if we are barking up the wrong tree.

My guess is that this probably falls under the philosophy that drove the Devs to reject any suggestions to 'overhaul the combat system'. I could be wrong but there might be a better chance of including minor tweaks that at least give a passing nod to ground combat rather than a whole new system. Perhaps things like:



* Sound effects when you click on the system being invaded.

* A short animation/picture when you conquer/lose your first system and/or home system.

* Potentially the inclusion of more capable system defences. Speed is less of a factor than the fact that fleets can take whole systems with max population without a scratch.

* An option to obliterate the populace/infrastructure of the planet for a quicker takeover time.

Ye would be nice if some dev would respond and tell what he is thinking about this ideas what can be improved or wont be able to implement

I'm really enjoying this game and would love to see some improvement to the invasion mechanic, I think it'd be a wasted opportunity to not try something and replace the current "ring waiting game" that is the current planet takeover method. I like the idea of having a invasion system and having its own cinematic battle card system likewise to the current fleet battle system.

Veneke wrote:
My guess is that this probably falls under the philosophy that drove the Devs to reject any suggestions to 'overhaul the combat system'. I could be wrong but there might be a better chance of including minor tweaks that at least give a passing nod to ground combat rather than a whole new system. Perhaps things like:



* Sound effects when you click on the system being invaded.

* A short animation/picture when you conquer/lose your first system and/or home system.

* Potentially the inclusion of more capable system defences. Speed is less of a factor than the fact that fleets can take whole systems with max population without a scratch.

* An option to obliterate the populace/infrastructure of the planet for a quicker takeover time.

Perhaps this could be added in an expansion since you are correct. Making such a large change would require a bunch of new A.I. coding, but it would be worth it. ENough people are interested. Now in the case of those that aren't, you can do an auto resolve that would be similar to what exists now, only the system fights back some.

Nasarog wrote:
Perhaps this could be added in an expansion since you are correct. Making such a large change would require a bunch of new A.I. coding, but it would be worth it. ENough people are interested. Now in the case of those that aren't, you can do an auto resolve that would be similar to what exists now, only the system fights back some.

You're quite right, not only is the actual design an issue but the AI needs to at least be semi-competent at it. Given that it's capability to deal with the space battles, which are easier to understand than a great deal of suggestions being put forward for ground combat, I don't hold out much hope for an engaging ground combat element without significant improvement in the AI. Which may not even be possible given the fact that most AI in computer games are going to be sub-par without some military-grade computer rig to run them on.



The problem with auto-resolve in ground combat is the same as auto-resolve in space combat - the AI usually underperforms, by a huge margin, in almost every case where it does not have complete and utter superiority. On the other hand, if there is going to be an involved ground combat system then you will need auto-resolve.



Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see ground combat implemented even if the AI was mediocre, the auto-resolve shoddy and multiple combats happen while it isn't possible to pick auto or manual. That all currently happens in the space combat anyway. But it would appear that anything other than an expansion (I've heard no news of something like this even being considered...) might be a little difficult to justify.