The block techs could be anything even modifiers you speak of to those specific techs surrounding the block techs.



The block techs themselves could have a comparitivly high science cost to the techs that surrounding them. That way it allows greater depth and variety in tactics as players are choosing between buffing existing techs or researching new ones.



The fact that the mods effects are race specific stop ever game being the same and would actually encourage player to adopt new strategies.

Ganpot wrote:
I see that as more of a problem with the AI than as a viable reason to keep the current tech system. Any leader in real life who traded bicycle technology for satellite technology would (rightfully) be considered utterly insane.

I feel like I've been saying this a lot, but hopefully the Diplomacy Improvement is going to fix these issues.

Fenrakk101 wrote:
This is true, but you also have to consider the fact that sometimes realism needs to be stretched to make the game a little more balanced.

I really do understand that, which is why I didn't suggest needing to research all prerequisites for any given tech.

Shivetya wrote:
I do back fill when I can get a handful of techs in a turn. In SP games its a great way to bleed free dust off the AI by trading them lots of expensive techs to use. In some cases there are techs that produce certain structures you can trade to the AI so he will waste time to build them and pay you for the privileged. It would be nice to influence his ship building by feeding him techs from one side or another of the tree

I see that as more of a problem with the AI than as a viable reason to keep the current tech system. Any leader in real life who traded bicycle technology for satellite technology would (rightfully) be considered utterly insane.

Ganpot wrote:
I consider all the weapon/defense module technologies in the war branch (other than the final few ones) to be relatively useless. Here's why: instead of wasting time researching all three lines (lasers, kinetics, and missiles) simultaneously, it is far more efficient to research one line all the way to the end (missiles after the laser nerf, since kinetics are still bad), then research sideways to reach the last techs in the other lines. Afterwards, there is absolutely no reason to research the ones you skipped over. This is even more true with the Sophons, since they have the science output necessary in order to research the latter techs quickly.

.

I do back fill when I can get a handful of techs in a turn. In SP games its a great way to bleed free dust off the AI by trading them lots of expensive techs to use. In some cases there are techs that produce certain structures you can trade to the AI so he will waste time to build them and pay you for the privileged. It would be nice to influence his ship building by feeding him techs from one side or another of the tree

Ganpot wrote:
I consider all the weapon/defense module technologies in the war branch (other than the final few ones) to be relatively useless. Here's why: instead of wasting time researching all three lines (lasers, kinetics, and missiles) simultaneously, it is far more efficient to research one line all the way to the end (missiles after the laser nerf, since kinetics are still bad), then research sideways to reach the last techs in the other lines. Afterwards, there is absolutely no reason to research the ones you skipped over. This is even more true with the Sophons, since they have the science output necessary in order to research the latter techs quickly.

Yeah, someone else mentioned this before. It seems to be one of the aspects of the game I wish they had worked on earlier; at the very least, you should have to research most of the other missile techs before getting the endgame missiles. It doesn't make sense that you could spend the entire game researching lasers and then get the best kinetics in the galaxy.

Ganpot wrote:
The funny thing is, that system is also extremely unrealistic. In real life, existing technologies in a field are used to discover new ones. We wouldn't have discovered the Neutron Bomb or EMP Bomb without first discovering the Nuclear Bomb, and we probably wouldn't have discovered the Nuclear Bomb without discovering dynamite and gunpowder (since the concept of an explosion would have been too strange to understand).

This is true, but you also have to consider the fact that sometimes realism needs to be stretched to make the game a little more balanced. Again, I'd have to look in the tech trees in-game to find any good examples, but sometimes the technologies you need to research to be able to unlock a new technology are a little illogical. But again, it's intended for balancing the game, whether it's succeeded or failed is up for debate.

Well the idea of this is there and until you reach the end, all technology's better then you currently own are valuable as research targets.



But I kinda agree for 2 reasons: Firstly foe the idea that you can easily skip entire sections of the tech tree without making all of the leading paths a prerequisite as would be more 'realistic', and secondly the idea that you can research multiple weapons of the same class that completely replace the lower ones, The EMP did not replace neutron bombs or nuclear bombs, even if fusion bombs replaced the fission bomb there should still be side grade developments and the like that represent the practical capability's of all four tech trees combined.

Combat_Koala wrote:
Which techs do you consider "useless" by the way?

I consider all the weapon/defense module technologies in the war branch (other than the final few ones) to be relatively useless. Here's why: instead of wasting time researching all three lines (lasers, kinetics, and missiles) simultaneously, it is far more efficient to research one line all the way to the end (missiles after the laser nerf, since kinetics are still bad), then research sideways to reach the last techs in the other lines. Afterwards, there is absolutely no reason to research the ones you skipped over. This is even more true with the Sophons, since they have the science output necessary in order to research the latter techs quickly.



The funny thing is, that system is also extremely unrealistic. In real life, existing technologies in a field are used to discover new ones. We wouldn't have discovered the Neutron Bomb or EMP Bomb without first discovering the Nuclear Bomb, and we probably wouldn't have discovered the Nuclear Bomb without discovering dynamite and gunpowder (since the concept of an explosion would have been too strange to understand).

Fenrakk101 wrote:
That sounds good, but considering how much information the game already withholds from you (the way the tax system works, for example) it may not be a good idea to fan the flames here.

I concur if anything we could do with more transparency in regards to game mechanics.

Shivetya wrote:
I voted no but I have an idea that may work but not sure how easy it is to code.



When switching between trees in your tech research you only get half the remaining points.



Example, if you had 400 points of research and needed only 180 to finish the current tech you would have the remaining 220 applied to the next tech ONLY if it were in the same tree, otherwise you only get to apply 110 to whatever you went to research. Kind of along the lines of, well we got all this setup up to research X that it would be a shame to shelve it to go off and research Z

That sounds good, but considering how much information the game already withholds from you (the way the tax system works, for example) it may not be a good idea to fan the flames here.

I voted no but I have an idea that may work but not sure how easy it is to code.



When switching between trees in your tech research you only get half the remaining points.



Example, if you had 400 points of research and needed only 180 to finish the current tech you would have the remaining 220 applied to the next tech ONLY if it were in the same tree, otherwise you only get to apply 110 to whatever you went to research. Kind of along the lines of, well we got all this setup up to research X that it would be a shame to shelve it to go off and research Z

Fenrakk101 wrote:
I would have to check in-game, but I remember never really having a use for Camouflage. That's the only one I can remember off the top of my head.

Really? Its a great defensive card to toss at early missile fleets the AI loves to have. In fact it works well throughout the game. I have done Camo/Repair/Repair against superior missile heavy fleets and never suffered a loss. If anything the card is too good versus missile fleets

I would have to check in-game, but I remember never really having a use for Camouflage. That's the only one I can remember off the top of my head.

Which techs do you consider "useless" by the way?



The race specific tech mods are there really to add depth and help the devs add variation to the existing techs, they just have the nice side effect of picking up the less useful ones in the process.

Combat_Koala wrote:
The bock techs themselves could have a comparitivly high science cost to the techs that surrounding them. That way it allows greater depth and variety in tactics as players are choosing between buffing existing techs or researching new ones.

It might be better to just have passive technologies already existent in the tech trees so players could make that decision. Like Sins of a Solar Empire, and without making the system confusing (such as tacking passive buffs to techs just because they were already pretty useless)

Currently, smart players skip over many techs on their way to the end-game technologies. Nowhere is this more evident than in the weapons category, where it is far more efficient to invest in one line until the end and then research sideways, instead of researching various lines simultaneously (as happens in most 4X games). I think there is a fairly easy solution to this. Increase overall science costs of all technologies by around 50% (you'd need to readjust individual levels a bit) and give a 5% science bonus while researching a tech for every technology already known in that branch. That way, players are rewarded for not skipping lots of intermediate techs but still have the option of doing so (if they really need a specific tech ASAP).



My math skills are rusty, but I think the general system is sound. Thoughts?





EDIT: I curse the inability to add tags after making a poll....

Ganpot wrote:
Well, the idea is that the new bonus to research speeds would only apply while researching techs in the same field. So a faction concentrating on war techs still wouldn't gain anything from researching dust techs, for example. The different branches would still offer distinct experiences (ideally, although another problem I have with the tech branches at the moment is that factions need to keep switching branches to stay competitive). Of course, you're welcome to disagree.

I understand it would only apply in the same field, but still, if your strategy involves skipping a few of the technologies that you don't use, then this kind of feature would sort of undermine your strategy. Especially since I like passive upgrades more than "active" upgrades, which in this case would include something like a new ship design.

Fenrakk101 wrote:
I'm voting Other. I don't agree with making every technology useful to every player. I think it's much more interesting from a design perspective if there were a reason to research certain tech and reason to skip other tech. Otherwise, there would be much less variety in the tactics, since players would be researching all the same upgrades to try to get these passive benefits.

Well, the idea is that the new bonus to research speeds would only apply while researching techs in the same field. So a faction concentrating on war techs still wouldn't gain anything from researching dust techs, for example. The different branches would still offer distinct experiences (ideally, although another problem I have with the tech branches at the moment is that factions need to keep switching branches to stay competitive). Of course, you're welcome to disagree.

I'm voting Other. I don't agree with making every technology useful to every player. I think it's much more interesting from a design perspective if there were a reason to research certain tech and reason to skip other tech. Otherwise, there would be much less variety in the tactics, since players would be researching all the same upgrades to try to get these passive benefits.



In practice, though, I don't think it lives up to that. There are plenty of technologies that I feel are universally accepted to be not worth the time and effort, and only seem to be there to fill out the trees a little more or to bar you from getting actually-useful upgrades. I think the tech trees should be adjusted on an individual level, not a universal level. Make the rather "useless" technologies a bit more interesting, so that they could start to be used in more strategies for more factions, and vary the multiplayer games a bit more. The useful technologies don't need to be any more useful than they are.

Great minds indeed. Even better if all those block techs were race specific showing how each race uses "common" scientific knowledge differently.

Combat_Koala wrote:
You could have technologies in the blank spaces between the tree, only unlocked once you have researched all the surrounding tech. Which provide all kinds of bonuses or neat things and represent an empire's perfection of those surrounding scientific principles.

Defiantly something I suggested a little while back, great minds buddy, great minds.....

Well improvement to things like the economy can then allow systems to more heavily devote towards your goal like science.



but I do get your point, so I will otherwise remain neutral towards how to specifically do it.

You could have technologies in the blank spaces between the branches in the tree, only unlocked once you have researched all the surrounding tech. Which provide all kinds of bonuses or neat things and represent an empire's perfection of those surrounding scientific principles.

EDIT: Sorry, double post (using awful public internet).

Igncom1 wrote:
Indeed, but at what point do all of these bonuses gain speed towards a science victory?

That's why the later technologies would need to have their starting research costs improved. Ideally, researching the entire tech tree should take around as long as it currently does (perhaps slightly less time, but not a lot).



I don't know... I doubt someone is going to cancel their research into terraforming planets just to get a small commerce bonus or something. By reducing further tech costs instead, players could choose to hold off on an important tech so that they could get techs cheaper/faster in the long run.

Ganpot wrote:
As I said, the individual raise of research time would need to vary. Starting techs would probably only go up like 15% in cost, whereas endgame techs would need to increase by much more than 50% (or else they'd get researched extremely quickly).



I thought about individual bonuses, but that would require the devs to think up hundreds of small potential bonuses. Plus some of those bonuses would still be near-useless in certain play-styles, which would mean they'd still get skipped. As far as I can tell, research speed is important in every situation.

Indeed, but at what point do all of these bonuses gain speed towards a science victory?



But while most of the boost would be kinda useless, your always going to need ships, you will always have colony's, and there will always be a guy who wants to knock over your sand castle, little boosts that are worthless one moment could end up changing the face of the entire galaxy....If strategically placed that is

Igncom1 wrote:
Well that sounds a little harsh, a 50% increase in cost would most likely strangle most Hissho and Craver empires.

As I said, the individual raise of research time would need to vary. Starting techs would probably only go up like 15% in cost, whereas endgame techs would need to increase by much more than 50% (or else they'd get researched extremely quickly).



I thought about individual bonuses, but that would require the devs to think up hundreds of small potential bonuses. Plus some of those bonuses would still be near-useless in certain play-styles, which would mean they'd still get skipped. As far as I can tell, research speed is important in every situation.

Well that sounds a little harsh, a 50% increase in cost would most likely strangle most Hissho and Craver empires.



I feel that the solution lies in passive boosts per technology, as in little reasons to spend a few turns back logging technology they didn't want.



I never go for the first right hand military technology due to the ease of getting better technology and due to its strategic cost, but a passive boost to say ship hp like 2-5% would give me enough incentive to research it anyway.



And my thoughts away!