This thread is the origin of discussions about taxation for individual systems.

Other threads about this have been archived:

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13828-system-taxation-slider

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13829-tax-settings-for-systems

/#/endless-space/forum/29-archives/thread/13938-suggestion-tax-breaks



Feel free to post here about this topic here and inform yourself about the variations the threads listed above have already discussed, but don't open new suggestion threads for anything alike.

Igncom1 wrote:
"Tax free toggle-Shogun 2 style"



I’m not familiar, please elaborate.

In TW:S2, there is a global tax rate. But you can set the tax rate of any province to zero. So rather than having system by system sliders, you have a single "bit" to display. In the economy overview, happy provinces are green, provinces at zero happiness are yellow, unhappy are red, and provinces at the zero tax rate are black.

tie the rate to empire taxes such as +/- 10 from empire rate rather than just a labeled rate of its own.

grimmjsb wrote:
tie the rate to empire taxes such as +/- 10 from empire rate rather than just a labeled rate of its own.

Why? That wouldn't reduce the micromanagement burden by even the tiniest amount.

I like having system by system taxes. Some smart AI to attempt to meet a desired tax level would be nice. Give me a total war view of unrest. Grey/Green/Yellow/Red. I find that system easy enough without micromanagement. Lots of games automate sections of the game that all players would not enjoy. Hearts of Iron III, we thank you.

I agree Zougkla and others that the taxation system is fine the way it is and that changing it to a system level taxation forces us into serious micromanagement on larger galaxies and I'm all for avoiding that.

I realize this poll has ended, but this is something I've been considering for a while now - and here are MY solutions:



1) System by system tax slider - BUT....

2) Each system's slider has a "Lock" feature that prevents the empire level setting from effecting THIS system's slider (ie, this system is not to be considered by the Empire slider below - it's an exception to be handled manually by the player)

2a) The lock should be implemented by moving a slider up/down the system's approval bar (to lock this system at a given approval - within the 0% to 100% tax limits anyways - which will cause this system to attempt to keep the approval rating set by ITS approval lock regarcless of the empire setting.

2b) - or - Moving the system's TAX slider up/down the tax bar (which would remove the approval lock - and vice versa - one lock only) forcing this system to stay at the given tax rate - no matter the implications for approval rating or empire slider settings.

2c) a "USe Empire Setting" button (or icon/slider position/whatever) that removes the system override setting for this system and returns it to "empire control"

3) Each turn, when accrediting Dust to the empire bank, the "effective" tax rate needs to be calculated from the Local or Empire slider setting (either calculated based on target approval, or read from target tax rates) - in other words, the approval setting attempts to MAXIMIZE the tax rate that'll still provide the target approval rating or higher in each system with an Approval setting (either locally locked or implied from the empire setting if no local lock is set) - obviously no system can exceed 100% tax or fall below 0% tax - if the target approval rating is still being obtained at 100% tax - the slider stops there, and that system's approval will just have to be higher than targetted. Conversly, if a system's approval rating is still too low at 0% tax rate, it'll just have to do the best it can with whatever approval rating it ends up with until it's grown enough to allow a higher tax rate.

4) A button on the empire scren to clear ALL system locks (and make all systems conbform to empire settings) would probably also be helpful



Ramifications (ALL are VERY EXCELENT in my opinion - which is why I am suggesting this change)

1) System micromanagement is POSSIBLE, but NOT required -- locks allow you to make exceptions system by system, Empire settings allow you to set general policy

2) Being able to set a target approval rating and having tax rates adjust automatically means you can decide on the general level of PRODUCTIVITY in your empire, and allow each system's individual circumstances determine how much they pay you (The "I need you all to be building at a good rate - just pay the empire whatever's left after doing that" setting)

3) Setting the target approval (instead of tax) allows new systems (with no approval bonus items) to end up with tax breaks and maximized productivity; whereas well established systems (with many approval boosting developements) will be paying more taxes (but they have a higher standard of living too, so higher taxes ACTUALLY make sense to these people) -- THIS is actually how real life works (at least in principle - individual exceptions obviously exist) - in the USA we call it local and state taxes... New cities and towns actually have VERY low relative tax rates compared to old and established cities (it's obviously not all in the "state/local tax" percentage - often times it's hidden in the form of luxury item taxes, property taxes, garbage service taxes, etc - but if you actually compare percentages of tax being paid - wealthy/prosperous individuals GENERALLY pay a much higher percentage of their income to taxes than poor/less prosperous individuals do)



I'm not sure how to get this idea polled - so if it needs a poll, please give me a heads up on how to do it - thanks.



(Shouldn't need a poll though, since it provides methods for EVERYONE's taste - which is the WHIOLE POINT)

- For those that like the current tax slider - it's still there (just don't lock any systems - which is the default state - easy, right)

- For those that prefer to micromanage - feel free to lock and maintain every system - the empire slider won't have the least effect on you, you win too

- For most of us - we can use a blend of the two systems - let the empire handle the bulk, then manage the exceptions ourselves

-- This is the essence of a GOOD UI - as far as I can tell - everyone wins - so get to work implementing this ye land lubbing devs! (cracks a whip)...



==disclaimer== dear devs: the whip cracking was meant only in jest - I assume your intelligence and desire for profit will be more than enough motivation to get you implementing my brilliant idea as fast as possible without any threat of violence from me ;p <-- tongue wink = playful comment not to be taken toooo serriously - for those not familiar with my emoticons.

Basically need a system by system taxing for the Empire industry bonus to be useful outside of way late game.

People (and wealth) move constantly from high-tax to low-tax areas. While this is actually pretty desirable for a new colony, it also saps the economies of more established regions. Unified tax rates prevent some of the ghetto-ization...



I wouldn't expect the game to model the complexities of this. I'd rather an oversimplified system that can be implemented easily be used than a 'realistic' system that's a design nightmare. Setting some areas to tax-free is just such a simplified system. It's a simple toggle. It doesn't take much managing. It doesn't require an advanced simulation to handle the economic ramifications, and it therefore won't tweak the ears of anyone who knows enough economics to wince at the idea.



A system set to tax-free produces no income (although having it gain from trade and be able to turn industry into Dust might still make sense). Every system set to tax-free should sap, say, 1-3% of FIDS from the entire empire, perhaps scaled on map size. Meanwhile, it will have very high approval due to the low local taxes, and should probably have a special population growth bonus based on what the tax rate in the rest of the empire is. Tax free zones aren't that impressive if the rest of the empire runs at 5% taxes; whereas if you're a late-game empire taxing everyone at 75%, any system you exempt from taxes will turn into an instant gold rush as everyone who has dreams of wealth will board the next transport over.



EDIT: I'd also say that a system should have a lingering, gradually reducing approval penalty when Tax-Free Zone is taken off. The size of the penalty should increase based on how long the system was Tax-Free and on just how high the standard tax-rates are. Yes, this is kinda painful, but shouldn't it be?

AlpsStranger wrote:
Bad idea.



It will raise micromanagement exponentially. Tax free toggle-Shogun 2 style-is a much better idea.



By the way, 'optional' is always a weasel word in strategy games.

Agreed; if we have to fuss with every planet we have to set taxes, that is unnecessary. If modifying system tax is put in, I'd rather see it as something on top of and addition to empire wide tax. It would act as an override for that system.

It's a good idea

It's not happening. The devs already ruled out individual system tax systems:

Steph'nie wrote:
DONE in game already, or will soon be implemented

**** Master must have

*** Master nice to have

** Post release must have

* Post release nice to have

X Never - either not possible or simply not in our vision

U Undecided



...



System Taxation - Ability to Tax independantly from Empire control [P] X

Sigh - apparently I've bought another copy of MoO3, sigh, not going to pay for a 4x game before I pirahhhh--- I mean, "test play" it ever again. I mean, just because Amplitude SAID they were going to create the game based on user feedback, and just because the pole shows aproximately TWICE the people WANT this feature - what was I THINKING, actually expecting it to make it into the game -- yeah, sorry amplitude - but your repeated poor design choices in the face of overwhelming user feedback coupled with your inane feedback offerings have relegated this game to my steam "never actually installed" pile, thanks for taking my money and failing to deliever on any promises, but don't worry - I won't ever let you do it again, so you don't need to worry about it in the future....

BTW: In all fairness - in my most recent game I just turned the taxation to ZERO and rotated a few fully developed systems building Ind->Dust, since I got like 8 times the dust from this than I was from taxes, and it freed up the new colonies to build as fast as possible -- so really, you can pretty much ignore the taxation slider - laugh histarically at the dev's complete inability to grasp such an obvious flaw, and play on. Not that I'm going to bother, but YOU can...

Now, I know that this is something that has been discussed at length, but I have a (hopefully) new idea that might be interesting :



"Buy Approval" :

On each system, you could devote some dust per turn to raise systems approval. This should be LESS effective than lowering taxes, but OTOH you could do it system per system.

For it to be less effective than global taxes, the cost to raise happiness should probably depend on that system population and the empire tax level.



Ideally it would be presented a bit like when choosing how much dust to give in the trade screen, and the left/right buttons for dust cost would automatically "snap" you to the closest bonus-giving system approval breakpoint.



IMHO one problem that ES has (that would be helped by this feature) is the discrepancy between the happiness of systems inside and outside of your territory (usually meaning between colonies and outposts), and the fact that there is NO way to affect the 30 turns delay for an outpost to grow into a colony.

This discrepancy quickly becomes huge in higher difficulty games, especially because it takes far less than 30 turns in the mid-end game to make an outpost fully built (with potentially all the approval buildings) and highly populated.

BlueTemplar wrote:
Now, I know that this is something that has been discussed at length, but I have a (hopefully) new idea that might be interesting :



"Buy Approval" :

On each system, you could devote some dust per turn to raise systems approval. This should be LESS effective than lowering taxes, but OTOH you could do it system per system.

For it to be less effective than global taxes, the cost to raise happiness should probably depend on that system population and the empire tax level.



Ideally it would be presented a bit like when choosing how much dust to give in the trade screen, and the left/right buttons for dust cost would automatically "snap" you to the closest bonus-giving system approval breakpoint.



IMHO one problem that ES has (that would be helped by this feature) is the discrepancy between the happiness of systems inside and outside of your territory (usually meaning between colonies and outposts), and the fact that there is NO way to affect the 30 turns delay for an outpost to grow into a colony.

This discrepancy quickly becomes huge in higher difficulty games, especially because it takes far less than 30 turns in the mid-end game to make an outpost fully built (with potentially all the approval buildings) and highly populated.

I am not sure about buying approval, but I agree about influence speeding up outpost to colony transformation (Possibly we should also turn it into a improvement) and influence increasing approval.

Yeah, isn't it weird that right now a high "distance" from your empire core increases approval?

Unless I'm mistaken this is exactly the reverse in most of the other empire-building games where such a distance/happiness system is implemented!

(Though less income from farther outposts is similar to other games).

This has been suggested before and has been my own personal idea. Is that rather than Empire controls the Tax Globally is wehther to have a more localised taxation system for each of the system(s) you manage. This resolves a number issues like population happiness and build requests.



Please vote either 'Yes' in favour of System Taxation or 'No' in favour Empire Control



I have added a poll to see where this is a test of popularity as a wanted idea in the game. If so will be added to suggestion summary list linked here

"Tax free toggle-Shogun 2 style"



I’m not familiar, please elaborate.

Bad idea.



It will raise micromanagement exponentially. Tax free toggle-Shogun 2 style-is a much better idea.



By the way, 'optional' is always a weasel word in strategy games.

MC8192 wrote:
jetkar, you might have got a better reponse by suggesting an optional system tax -

switch any colony you specify to local tax, all other colonies remain in the empire.

In hind sight yes probably right

MC8192 wrote:
jetkar, you might have got a better reponse by suggesting an optional system tax -

switch any colony you specify to local tax, all other colonies remain in the empire.

I do wish I could start my marginal colonies as 'tax free zones' to bolster their growth for a while before integrating them into the empire with its much higher tax rates. Of course, nobody likes to lose their privileges, so special low tax zones should resist tax increases in some manner. Perhaps extra morale penalties, negative local events, and even localized rebellions in extreme cases?

jetkar, you might have got a better reponse by suggesting an optional system tax -

switch any colony you specify to local tax, all other colonies remain in the empire.

Added to Summary List as being marginally popular

Thats fair...This is a pilot / trial the Dev team are considering for anyone submitting new ideas also submits a poll to see if their idea is popular in order to be put forward to the Dev team.

Zougkla wrote:
I think the taxation system is fine how it is.



If we tax them on a system level then you would not only be forced to micromanage your systems, but it would destroy the dust production system!



You would simply raise taxes on your dust systems and minimize them everywhere else.



I don't see any way that that could work.

You've persuaded me. I now wish I could change my vote from 'yes' to 'no'.

In any sprawling empire game micromanagement like that kills enjoyment because it is absolutely repetitive.

Can't say that I would find this advisable at all. I like to micromanage, but this would be overkill, imo.

I think the taxation system is fine how it is.



If we tax them on a system level then you would not only be forced to micromanage your systems, but it would destroy the dust production system!



You would simply raise taxes on your dust systems and minimize them everywhere else.



I don't see any way that that could work.

i think a balance needs to be reached. If no to controlling taxes on an individual system level, at least do what total war does and give you the option to "exempt" the new system you conquer from tax (suggested by fixou above) therefore making it easier to avoid strikes on newly conquered systems. I agree that the micromanaging of individual systems might not be the right idea, but there needs to be an option to "appease" the population you conquer. (maybe like a dust payment as a gesture of goodwill to repair infrastructure, or an event where if you complete an objective- like building an agricultural improvement within 12 turns- gives you an approval bonus). Just some suggestions

Just make it a toggle between empire/system taxation. Problem solved.

i voted no as the best systems for taxes for me is the one of total war shogun 2 where you have an empire tax rate but where you can dispense some lands (here systems) from taxes to avoid riots. I don't want to micro manage all the tax rates of my systems, it would be very tedious once you have tens of them.

bump thread need your vote!!