Tredecim wrote:
Interesting & good



Signed

Glad you approve lol



Added that pirates would get a boost if they attacked cargo ships. Also updated costs.

n18991c wrote:
I like the idea, ES could really do with a greater variety in terms of ships, ship classes and installable modules, so

Agreed... fortunately they also understand that, and it'll be improved for the expansion.



This idea has a lot of merit, but it needs more work, and I think it can become really good.



The Pilgrim affinity is rather poor at present, and needs a boost... perhaps some of the suggestions here could be included in it (like, for example, when you make a Pilgrim colony ship, maybe they should get 2 or 3 free improvements, rather than having to strip the system that provides them, as it is now).

I like the idea, ES could really do with a greater variety in terms of ships, ship classes and installable modules, so

Razis wrote:
Honestly I think there are so many things that we need implemented way more than cargo ships. Would be a waste of dev time at this stage of ES game design.

If so, why the heck are you beating a dead horse???



This thread has been under the radar for weeks. All you are doing is moving it back to the top.

Honestly I think there are so many things that we need implemented way more than cargo ships. Would be a waste of dev time at this stage of ES game design.

JE66 wrote:
I support the idea of cargo ships in general, but not necessarily the way it is presented.



Sending food and materials (industry) I can totally support. You waste some industry to build the ship to send food and industry to an outpost. That is solid! It is more of programming the AI than the feature that is the PIA IMO.



However, this could really balance out the whole admin hero luck and make it more about logistics, which is good IMO.

Interesting... Are you talking about industry "packets" so to speak? But I'm kind of confused, because food isnt really a big problem and thus wouldnt really have a need to ship actual food. I would find it more practical to send food boosting improvements to the system. Good ideas, I'd like it if you expounded a bit more lol

Igncom1 wrote:
This only affects the AI who is capable of seeing the change, and even then, when you start finishing the ships the trend will still happen.



So you get the same effect in the end, all limited by the industry of the system you are sending the ships too, that by the time you are taking to ship them over might as well be the one building them in the first place.

1) If you were to buy out the unfinished ships (since they would now be significantly cheaper) all in one turn, then the AI can't really do much about it if you want to invade them.

2) In some cases this is possible. But it still might be useful in other cases.

Then don't, adding on the ability for systems who shouldn't be building fleets to be actually able to pump them out is stupid and makes the whole point of having specialised systems pointless.

The specialized system is still doing most of the work, and it would still be useful for it to be specialized.

You don't need more then 1 forge system because my one at the back lines can build for every system and remove the need to have industry else where.

Unless your slow military build-up triggers a war with the other factions in which case a solitary forge system would not be able to churn out enough ships fast enough.

That only affects the AI, and that's discounting that there is also a modifier for AI military respect, making having a large visible MP a good thing.

Yes, in some cases it pays to have large amounts of MP. But in other situations it may be a bad thing.

The pilgrim affinity can move practically any improvement, and is hardly used.



Your idea can only move selected ones and so is much more limited in usefulness when compared to the underused pilgrim affinity.

A) the Pilgrim Affinity is under-used because it is under powered. Yes, its a completely different argument but I believe that the Pilgrim Affinity needs a boost as it is.

B) If it weren't limited, the Pilgrims would be robbed of their affinity entirely.

C) To be honest, I don't think the Pilgrim Affinity is actually completely useless. Its just too under powered compared to the other factions, So I never use it in the custom race generator.

i both like and dislike the idea. i can see why it would help and be usefull in some sitaruations. but it only seem to be usefull in those few things. im 50-50

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Not so. Military build-up causes un-rest in the other factions. If they see you building up on MP, then their diplomatic relations will begin to decline. If they cannot see your build-up, then diplomatic relations will be stable, and allow for sneak attacks.

This only affects the AI who is capable of seeing the change, and even then, when you start finishing the ships the trend will still happen.



So you get the same effect in the end, all limited by the industry of the system you are sending the ships too, that by the time you are taking to ship them over might as well be the one building them in the first place.

1) What if its a low-industry system and it would be impractical for it to build its own ships?

Then don't, adding on the ability for systems who shouldn't be building fleets to be actually able to pump them out is stupid and makes the whole point of having specialised systems pointless.



You don't need more then 1 forge system because my one at the back lines can build for every system and remove the need to have industry else where.



If you want a front line system building fleets, then specialise it that way.

2) Not practical for hidden MP.

That only affects the AI, and that's discounting that there is also a modifier for AI military respect, making having a large visible MP a good thing.

You have some good claims there. But you could back it up with evidence. For instance, in what ways does trying to separate it from the Pilgrim Affinity limit the idea?

The pilgrim affinity can move practically any improvement, and is hardly used.



Your idea can only move selected ones and so is much more limited in usefulness when compared to the underused pilgrim affinity.

I support the idea of cargo ships in general, but not necessarily the way it is presented.



Sending food and materials (industry) I can totally support. You waste some industry to build the ship to send food and industry to an outpost. That is solid! It is more of programming the AI than the feature that is the PIA IMO.



However, this could really balance out the whole admin hero luck and make it more about logistics, which is good IMO.

Igncom1 wrote:




So you would be hiding MP that really doent help you becuse you can only see yoursa in relation to the strongest power who is never actually named in the game anyway.



SO thats pointless.

Not so. Military build-up causes un-rest in the other factions. If they see you building up on MP, then their diplomatic relations will begin to decline. If they cannot see your build-up, then diplomatic relations will be stable, and allow for sneak attacks.

Igncom1 wrote:




And the idea that the final destination would finish the ships is stupid because that system could have just normally build the ship anyway, or you know, just build it at the forge system and more it normally.

1) What if its a low-industry system and it would be impractical for it to build its own ships?

2) Not practical for hidden MP.

Igncom1 wrote:
As in "its the pilgrims affinity that no one ever uses, but worse!"



That is still a poor idea at the best of times, because the usefulness of this would be extremely limited by trying to not make it the pilgrim affinity that it in its self is still a really bad idea to begin with because the time saved is rather small anyway that there would be more point in simply turning industry into empire wide industry.

You have some good claims there. But you could back it up with evidence. For instance, in what ways does trying to separate it from the Pilgrim Affinity limit the idea?

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Read the entire post. Most especially at the bottom. Lord_S already brought this whole thing up days ago. And I said select improvements. Specifically, I said improvements that the system made for exportation.

As in "its the pilgrims affinity that no one ever uses, but worse!"



That is still a poor idea at the best of times, because the usefulness of this would be extremely limited by trying to not make it the pilgrim affinity that it in its self is still a really bad idea to begin with because the time saved is rather small anyway that there would be more point in simply turning industry into empire wide industry.

You say there is not point to transporting unfinished ships. The reason this is included is so that the player is capable of moving his/her ships to strategical locations without the enemy being able to see a boost in overall MP (which would create suspicion.) The downside of this would be that it would take a while for the cargo ship to transport it, and the destination system would have to finish it.

So you would be hiding MP that really doent help you becuse you can only see yoursa in relation to the strongest power who is never actually named in the game anyway.



SO thats pointless.



And the idea that the final destination would finish the ships is stupid because that system could have just normally build the ship anyway, or you know, just build it at the forge system and more it normally.





Both of these ideas are kinda....no they are pointless because their usefulness is really not warranted in their inclusion into the game for something (The pilgrim affinity) that no one uses anyway.

Igncom1 wrote:
So um, no you did say that.

Read the entire post. Most especially at the bottom. Lord_S already brought this whole thing up days ago. And I said select improvements. Specifically, I said improvements that the system made for exportation.



You say there is not point to transporting unfinished ships. The reason this is included is so that the player is capable of moving his/her ships to strategical locations without the enemy being able to see a boost in overall MP (which would create suspicion.) The downside of this would be that it would take a while for the cargo ship to transport it, and the destination system would have to finish it.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
If you read my post, you will see how it is not.

I specifically said that Cargo Ships cannot evacuate improvements or population.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:




The idea behind this suggestion is to have a ship class capable of transporting select improvements and ships within their cargo hold.

So um, no you did say that.



Transporting ships is pointless because they can move themselves to their target once constructed, so there is no point in that.



And moving improvements is a pilgrim thing, so you would be removing one of the few things that they actually have that is unique.



So I don't get what is the point of this suggestion other then unnecessary crap?

Igncom1 wrote:
Isn't this just the pilgrim affinity?

If you read my post, you will see how it is not.

I specifically said that Cargo Ships cannot evacuate improvements or population.

Isn't this just the pilgrim affinity?

Cargo Ships

The idea behind this suggestion is to have a ship class capable of transporting select improvements and ships within their cargo hold. As you may read, this will add a new element of strategy to the game, and, more specifically, to colonization.

Functionality

As mentioned, Cargo ships would be able to transport select ships and star system improvements to other places in you galaxy. Here's the Break-Down:



1) The cargo Ship would have an initial tonnage of 100 Tons, and a base industry cost of 100.

2) The cargo Ship would have exclusive access to a new line of support modules: Cargo bays. it could carry a maximum of four of these modules.

3) If a Cargo Ship is outfitted with 1-2 Cargo modules, it is a 2 CP ship. If it is outfitted with 3-4, then it is 4 CPs.

4) Cargo ships would have +50% weapons module cost to avoid "Self-Escorting" Cargo Ships.

5) Cargo ships would have 350 starting .

6) They would have a -3 effect on the fleet they are traveling with.

7) Retreat is not an option during a battle. This is to simulate further the effect of "slowness" on Cargo Ships.

8) The buyout base (factor) would be 3X in order to prevent empires from buying power.

Cargo Bays

Here is how Cargo Bays would function:



1) Cargo bays cost 20 tons, and +50. Thus a Cargo Ship rigged with only four of these modules would cost 300

2) For every Cargo bay the ship has, it is capable of transporting either A) one improvement or B) 1 Command Point (CP). So if a cargo ship has 4 bays, it would be capable of transporting 4 improvements or one Unfinished Dreadnought (Or 4 destroyers etc. etc.) (The reason unfinished is italicized is to emphasize the fact that the ship cannot be already assembled. It must be transported in its "components" so to speak.)

This would be accomplished by moving a finished improvement from the system list back into the Que. This would create a duplicate that, after the required number of turns, would be deposited in a sort of "Improvement hangar". Then it could be moved into the cargo ship. The cargo ship would then deliver said improvement/ship to its destination.

New Strategical Dimension

This idea (At least I think) has the potential to create a new strategical dimension to Endless Space. After either colonizing a new system or taking it over, we all know the troubles of making the populous happy. Say you were to load Approval Improvements into cargo ships, and send them to these new/conquered systems? you would be able to boost the approval immediately. Now, you might be asking something at this point. Why not put a To Conversion improvement into system A and use the revenue to buy the improvement for this new system (B)? Well, that would waste 3/4 of the industry in system A. With this idea, you could utilize all the industry in system A, if you are willing to wait the extra time for the cargo ship to reach its destination.



Also, you could finnally create convoys. These would be cargo ships being escorted by stronger ships and complemented (Possibly) With a seed ship. If the seed ship were to colonize a planet, the cargo ships could deposit improvements immediately (1 turn) To help get the ball rolling on the colony. I think this would be helpful for later game colonizing/conquering.



In addition, Pirates would be given 20% combat bonus if they are attacking a fleet with at least one cargo ship. This would simulate a "treasure" motivation.

Scientific Details

I'm not really sure about this section, so I'll put a poll up for the following options:

1)Should Cargo Ship hulls be on the 4th or 5th Tier of Expansion Research?

2) Should Cargo Bays be on the 4th 5th or 6th tiers?

(Presuming you like my idea :P)

Important Notes Brought up by Feedback

1) Systems can Not load improvements that it made for itself onto Cargo Ships. This is to protect the Pilgrims Affinity.

2) If you think Cargo Ships are too cheap, post and say so.





Criticism welcome as long as you say why you don't like it!

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
I added some costs and added that cargo ships cannot retreat. Considering they have a low , this makes them very vulnerable. (Especially if you consider that they would be primarily used for expansion, thus becoming vulnerable to pirates & enemies.

Interesting & good



Signed

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
If you give a way to fix this, it would gladly be added.

I honestly have no idea. Once again, I'm not that experienced with the game, so things could turn out well for this idea anyway.

Tredecim wrote:
Well, I like you idea but as gameshoes said:







it might become too strong/break the system.

I added some costs and added that cargo ships cannot retreat. Considering they have a low , this makes them very vulnerable. (Especially if you consider that they would be primarily used for expansion, thus becoming vulnerable to pirates & enemies.

Wenchbane wrote:
Sounds good but as people already stated what would happen with the empires using this? Then again they could always just buyout on new colonies the improvements.



But if there is any specific ways to make this less "OP" so to speak, please let me know.

Perhaps some prohibitive costs? Maybe up the buyout base on the hull that way the route is more attractive rather than buying it out.

Buy out base. I'll have to look into that. Perhaps making the cargo ship more expensive would help.

Sounds good but as people already stated what would happen with the empires using this? Then again they could always just buyout on new colonies the improvements.



Perhaps some prohibitive costs? Maybe up the buyout base on the hull that way the route is more attractive rather than buying it out.

Well, I like you idea but as gameshoes said:

gameshoes wrote:
This is an interesting idea, but I feel that this is too in favor of "the rich get richer" theme too much. Yes, those who do well should be rewarded but that's already done in the fact that they are able to expand.

Players who get ahead can just piggyback on this thing to victory. If you get multiple cargo ships to come from multiple systems, you will quickly colonize areas faster than your opponents ever could.

Then this idea is adding more than just an option, it will become integral for any player's success.

Now, granted that I don't play this game too often I may just be blowing smoke here but that's my input.

it might become too strong/break the system.

gameshoes wrote:
This is an interesting idea, but I feel that this is too in favor of "the rich get richer" theme too much. Yes, those who do well should be rewarded but that's already done in the fact that they are able to expand.

Players who get ahead can just piggyback on this thing to victory. If you get multiple cargo ships to come from multiple systems, you will quickly colonize areas faster than your opponents ever could.

Then this idea is adding more than just an option, it will become integral for any player's success.

Now, granted that I don't play this game too often I may just be blowing smoke here but that's my input.

If you give a way to fix this, it would gladly be added.



Of course, the rich Empires could simply purchase the improvements as well. I think that this idea could help based empires get on level ground with based Empires.

This is an interesting idea, but I feel that this is too in favor of "the rich get richer" theme too much. Yes, those who do well should be rewarded but that's already done in the fact that they are able to expand.

Players who get ahead can just piggyback on this thing to victory. If you get multiple cargo ships to come from multiple systems, you will quickly colonize areas faster than your opponents ever could.

Then this idea is adding more than just an option, it will become integral for any player's success.

Now, granted that I don't play this game too often I may just be blowing smoke here but that's my input.

Lord_S wrote:
I think this idea would make the pilgrim's affinity nearly useless. This is something like evacuating a system except of the pop-transport.

I never said that a system could transport the improvements that it made for itself. I said it could only transport off improvements that it made Specifically for exportation.

Lord_S wrote:
I think this idea would make the pilgrim's affinity nearly useless. This is something like evacuating a system except of the pop-transport.

Personally, I've never liked the pilgrim's affinity, and have always thought it should be changed.

And if they were to change it, I would like to add that the cargo ships should be able to transport population as well.

I have always wanted to get a good hold on systems quickly, and it's very hard to do that if you can only transport one pop. per ship without at least being able to re-use it.

I think this idea would make the pilgrim's affinity nearly useless. This is something like evacuating a system except of the pop-transport.

Sovereign wrote:
Mhh why not? could has some potential.



Yes Yes i know extremly more complicated in terms of balance but real teamplay...and *real* Trade with actual *Cargo* ships is not existing atm. (sadly)

Making trade more concrete would be nice, yes.

Stealth_Hawk wrote:
First of all, i'm not suggesting trade between players

Mhh why not? could has some potential.



Yes Yes i know extremly more complicated in terms of balance but real teamplay...and *real* Trade with actual *Cargo* ships is not existing atm. (sadly)

Sovereign wrote:
1.What is with Improvments Trade between players?



2.Didnt u think the Cargo Ships are a little bit to cheap in terms of industrie costs?

First of all, i'm not suggesting trade between players



Second, I thought that since they were low tonnage it would counter their low industry cost. But if necessary it could be raised.

1.What is with Improvments Trade between players?



2.Didnt u think the Cargo Ships are a little bit to cheap in terms of industrie costs?