I think that making the combat more xomplex was needed but regardless of intention the delivery was catastrophic. No comprehensive explanation on release left most of the playerbase totally clueless what to do with said new mechanics. There are guides now and things have become more clear but considering the same threads popping up by newcomers some sort of "combat-tutorial" would be a nice thing to help new people to ease in.



Personally I m still not sure how hull weakness plays out and what impact certain values have.

Space Combat is something that is poorly described by most contemporary literature and cinema. The problem is that people really, really underestimate how big space is. It's hard to think about something that you can't readily conceptualize. I'm going to go into some references now, for example, the premise behind Ender's Game (Ender's Shadow really, whatever) is that defense is impossible in space. There is only attacking. If your defense stops 99% of the enemy, that 1% left over is enough to destroy your planets, people, whatever (glass cannons!). Consider a WW2 Battleship with 16" guns, it could shoot 22 miles and would take 1.5 minutes for a shell to hit target at maximum range. Consider the AIM-120D AMRAAM missile, it has a range of 180KM+ and even at Mach 4, takes a while to get to target. David Drake has a series featuring a Commander Harrington (volume 1 available for free from the publisher here: http://www.baenebooks.com/p-304-on-basilisk-station.aspx). It features an interesting (I won't say realistic) idea about space combat. Shots are fired that takes take 15+ minutes to land. Interception and combat takes place over the course of days. Distance is measured in millions of miles. That's big. Consider how much math and timing goes into launching a rocket into space on a course to hit the moon or mars, it's tough.



So evasion is the ability of a ship to shift (just a little over the course of 15 minutes in space at relativistic speeds is a BIG distance) in space and it's own countermeasures. Flares, decoys, electronic noise, radar jamming, shooting down attacks coming your way, etc. There are tons of possibilities for dodging in space.



Plus, why limit something to 250m? Why not something big, like a Super Star Destroyer (Star Wars) 10+ KM (depending on the reference).



What it all boils down it is: What type of Space Magic exists in your universe. Engine power, weapon power, computer power, etc. A great example is BattleStar Galactica. Their computer technology is useless, and yet they still manage to have a working Space Magic for their universe. You have to work within the system that has been designed for you.

The corvettes are 250m, medium ships are 500m and dreadnoughts 100M.



Could be a thing with practicality with moving the mass and cost.



And wasn't only networked computers useless in Battlestar due to cylon hacking? Intendant systems were fine, because hacking any intendant system when there are also many backups would be a waste of time.



Edit: And ES battles clearly don't fight over such distances, they can SEE each other.

If you want to go into that detail then you can also consider that any kinetic shell fired that "misses" it's *intended* target is eventually, some day, going to hit something and seriously ruin someone's day

The "representation" of combat makes it look like they are that close. What is "actually" going on could be different. For example, consider Space Invaders. Is our ship really just a half inch large? Is space really just 24 inches high? Or is just putting everything on a screen so we can see it? Once we accept that we can rescale things for distances, we can then make that distance be anything really.

If a destroyer can hold 4? colony pods, does that mean we can fill up Earth with people from just 2 250m ships? How do they store people on that thing?

That's just a limitation of previous technology's that constrained Space invaders.



But really we can only both speculate, and I am not getting into another pseudo-science speculation discussion because neither of us can ever really prove our points.

thuvian wrote:
If a destroyer can hold 4? colony pods, does that mean we can fill up Earth with people from just 2 250m ships? How do they store people on that thing?

Destroyers in ES vanilla can only store a single colony pod.



And is more then likely that people are stored like sardines, in a kind of artificial coma or cryo-storage, to save space and resources for the journey.

Touche. Although I don't want to play Space Invaders on a million mile 3d screen. Well, maybe I do.



The point I was trying to make is that all of the things in the game are representations and that we shouldn't focus too much on the absolute details of it all. It's space magic, accept the rules as they are given to us and move on with life.



Also, that's why I like using short range kinetics. Eventually I'll hit some Cravers by accident (let's ignore the other millions of accidental hits).

thuvian wrote:
Touche. Although I don't want to play Space Invaders on a million mile 3d screen. Well, maybe I do.



The point I was trying to make is that all of the things in the game are representations and that we shouldn't focus too much on the absolute details of it all. It's space magic, accept the rules as they are given to us and move on with life.

Yes yes, abstraction.

Whilst I do agree with you about space combat being very poorly depicted thuvian (ships always travelling the same way they are pointing anyone?) I think for the purposes of the game it is fairly safe to assume that both combatants have decided that sitting 3 systems away and blasting at each other is a fruitless effort and that "long range" for the games sake is determined to be "the maximum range we can be to guarantee the enemy does not have time to dodge our missles". Thus meaning that as they get closer and closer the other weapons also get to their optimal "they do not have time to dodge" range.



Without that space magic then it makes no sense that my siege ships can't fire from 3 systems away on turn 56 and have the population and structures of the enemy system take damage on turn 63. There needs to be some imposed limits somewhere.

So, since this thread has been somewhat commandeered for the purposes of talking about accuracy, let's continue on that line of thought.



What should happen when a ship with weapons with a X$ Accuracy shoots at a ship with Y% evasion?



[TABLE="class:grid,align:center"] Accuracy

Evasion

Current Chance to Hit

w/o Evasion Disorientation

Your Thoughts

0%

0%

0%

50%

0%

50%

50%

50%

0%

50%

100%

0%

100%

0%

100%

100%

50%

50%

100%

100%

0%

150%

50%

100%

150%

100%

50%



[/TABLE]



If you have a minute, can you copy and paste this table and put in the values that you think would be reasonable?

Igncom1 wrote:
Never really been a fan of dodging in a space battle.......with 250m ships, but making an opponent miss? That could be nice.

I tend to agree with you on this. We are supposed to imagine futuristic races with the advanced technology that enables them to travel the stars and colonize anything they want too - yet they cannot make a targeting computer that is able to lead a 250m long hunk of metal floating in a vacuum that requires huge amounts of thrust to change direction even slightly? It reminds me of a certain scene in Star Wars that is summed up perfectly in Family Guy - Blue Harvest.



http://youtu.be/owIt6wbOz9U

[TD="colspan:2"][/TD]

[TD="colspan:3"]Range Accuracy Modifiers[/TD]

[TD="colspan:3"]Range Accuracy[/TD]

[TD="colspan:4"]Average Damage without Evasion Disorientation[/TD]

[TD="colspan:3"]Maximum Misses[/TD]

[TD="colspan:5"]Attacks 14[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.7[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.7[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.175[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.175[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]350[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]350[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]70[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]70[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.83[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.83[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3033.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1808.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1808.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4841.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6650.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.165[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.165[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]280[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]560[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.90[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.90[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2856.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4106.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2856.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6962.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]9818.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.3[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.75[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.075[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.225[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.3[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]288[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1152[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]9.50[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.50[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5184.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6336.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6912.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]11520.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]18432.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1.2[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1.2[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.3[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.3[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]210[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]210[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]147[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]147[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2520.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1260.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1260.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3780.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5040.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.7[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.231[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.7[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.231[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]300[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]600[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]120[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]120[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.46[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.46[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3324.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5200.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3324.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8524.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]11848.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.75[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.75[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]60[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]240[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]60[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]120[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]180[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1360.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2160.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2560.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3520.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6080.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]440[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]440[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]220[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]220[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4693.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2493.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2493.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]7186.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]9680.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.165[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.165[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]360[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]720[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.90[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]6.67[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.90[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3672.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5280.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3672.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8952.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]12624.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.85[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.25[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.75[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.2125[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.6375[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.85[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0.5[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]56[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]224[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]0[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]30.8[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]78.4[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]109.2[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]8.58[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5.75[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]4.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1213.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]1848.00[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]2165.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]3061.33[/TD]

[TD="align:right"]5226.67[/TD]

EvasionDisorientation

0.15

Type

Range

Accuracy

LR Accuracy modifier

MR Accuracy modifier

SR Accuracy modifier

LR Accuracy

MR Accuracy

SR Accuracy

Evasion

Damage per hit

Shots per Range Phase

Maximum Damage per Range Phase

Long Range

Medium Range

Short Range

Total Damage per Weapon without EvasionDisorientation

Long Range Max Misses

Medium Range Max Misses

Short Range Max Misses

Damage in Long Range

Damage in Medium Range

Damage in Short Range

Cumulative Damage to Medium Range

Cumulative Damage to Short Range

Kinetic

LR

Kinetic

MR

Kinetic

SR

Laser

LR

Laser

MR

Laser

SR

Missile

LR

Missile

MR

Missile

SR

This characterizes the problems with the 1.1.14 combat mechanics with Short Range Kinetics being too powerful. The core of the problem is EvadeDisorientation (do I have an obsession or what?). First, if you have only a few weapons on a ship, you need to use Long Range weapons or hope your ship can get to short range and have short range weapons. If you don't the odds are you aren't going to be able to hit (this is exacerbated with the Deflections that come with our 1.1.14 deflectors). However, if you have lots of weapons, accuracy isn't something that significantly affects your damage. As you see, after the first 4-9 weapon modules miss per round, the rest will hit. This can be taken advantage of ships (or fleets) that have lots of short range kinetic weapons. With a 14 gun destroyer, assuming (worst case scenario) 10 miss, that gives you 4 full damage shots. Weighing in with 4 (salvos per round) with 288 per salvo with 4.5 weapons, we get a hefty 5184 damage per round with a single destroyer using level 1 kinetics. Our poor long range missile destroyer does less damage with more missiles hitting AND it can't kill as many people you can only hit 1 ship with the 4693 damage it does. In contrast our 14 short range kinetic weapon destroyer can hit up to 4 ships.



The solution? Not sure. I've ran some numbers but haven't gotten anything solid yet.

My currently rules for finding a good system.

1. Weapons should be relatively similar in damage efficiency.

2. Weapons should scale similarly in damage efficiency.

3. EvadeDisorienation should be removed.

4. Short Ranged weapons fire x4, which means their accuracy needs to be less than 25% of the Long Range weapons.

5. Medium Rnaged weapons fire x2 which means their accuracy needs to be less than 50% of the Long Range weapons.

6. Long Range weapons need to do more damage in the Long Range Phase than other weapons.

7. Medium Range weapons need to do more cumulative damage in the Medium Range Phase than other weapons.

8. Short Range weapons need to do more cumulative damage in the Short Range Phase than other weapons.

9. Long Range weapons need to be able to do alpha strikes that destroy their targets. Otherwise, why not use Medium Range weapons that do better damage? The same is true for Medium versus Short Ranged weapons.

10. Documentation of fleeing combat. I don't understand fleeing combat mechanics. Sometimes the enemy is destroyed, sometimes not. Ideas? Answers?



As a side note we can also apply similar ideas to Fighters and Bombers. The special module cap needs to be dropped. The damage and tonnage of the fighters and bombers need to be same efficiency as our weapons of an equal tech level. The tonnage of the module needs to be around 75. This would limit you to using only 1 fighter/bomber module per destroyer, but would allow for the Fighters and Bombers do actually do something useful. As it stands they do a pittance of damage, and you can't stack them. Keeping them the same weight would allow you to stack them, but then you have the problem of having 50-150+ fighters and bombers in a combat (that doesn't turn out well).

thuvian wrote:


....My currently rules for finding a good system.

1. Weapons should be relatively similar in damage efficiency.

2. Weapons should scale similarly in damage efficiency.

3. EvadeDisorienation should be removed.

4. Short Ranged weapons fire x4, which means their accuracy needs to be less than 25% of the Long Range weapons.

5. Medium Rnaged weapons fire x2 which means their accuracy needs to be less than 50% of the Long Range weapons.

6. Long Range weapons need to do more damage in the Long Range Phase than other weapons.

7. Medium Range weapons need to do more cumulative damage in the Medium Range Phase than other weapons.

8. Short Range weapons need to do more cumulative damage in the Short Range Phase than other weapons.

9. Long Range weapons need to be able to do alpha strikes that destroy their targets. Otherwise, why not use Medium Range weapons that do better damage? The same is true for Medium versus Short Ranged weapons.

10. Documentation of fleeing combat. I don't understand fleeing combat mechanics. Sometimes the enemy is destroyed, sometimes not. Ideas? Answers?

The point 1 could just make all weapons pointless but long range. It's like try make even all ranges could lead to wrong things.



Long range is the first phase and that makes it more important than medium range the second phase, that is more important than the close range which is the third phase. You can try a rock/paper/scissor approach and analyze to counter balance it, for example, LR Defense + MR attack wins against LR Defense and LR attack. But it's never ending to use this analyzing. So I think a question is what roles and counter roles for each phase.



EDIT: An eternal problem of balance, ranges and RPG. Long range complain close range do much more damages then close range complain that long range do as much damages but have a much easier play. I realize writing that how easier are the combat movies design from an analyzing point of view, when like in Dominion 3 the fights use more classical approach, close range could defend long range, need time to reach long range, need face enemy close range before to reach long range, close range could use broadside attack to try avoid enemy close range and reach directly enemy long range, and more. It's a lot more challenging to show combats movies meaning tactical and strategical things when it's about Space Combats.

Stalker0 wrote:




My point was not to remove the complex mechanics, just because. My point was that the mechanics are both complex, AND that they do not provide that strategic depth you were referring to.

How about with start with Transparency, and go from there.

Nook wrote:
The point 1 could just make all weapons pointless but long range. It's like try make even all ranges could lead to wrong things.

I had meant to refer to the various weapons types, i.e., lasers, missiles, and kinetics, not ranges. As per points 6 to 9, you can see I have documented some of the necessary features of the different weapon ranges.

thuvian wrote:
I had meant to refer to the various weapons types, i.e., lasers, missiles, and kinetics, not ranges.

And as each weapon type is better in its favorite range the problem remain. you want to equalize stuff when the initial situation isn't even because there's 1st phase, 2nd phase,...

thuvian wrote:


As per points 6 to 9, you can see I have documented some of the necessary features of the different weapon ranges.

And you are comforting the equalize approach which is typically wrong, no close range and long range can't have the same efficiency.

I'm afraid I'm having a hard time understanding exactly what you mean Nook.



In any case, I'm arguing that we do away with the current system of weapons types being "designed" for certain "ranges". Given the choice and information, a player will only choose the optimal weapon for the optimal "range". I say "range", because as documented else where the different weapon "ranges" are really just abstract labels that denote a weak dominance during a particular range phase, and not actually having a real 'range". This means that a player would not use long range beams (for example), unless they don't have a choice in the matter (e.g., lack of resources).



So I'm suggesting that the new balance system needs to start with kinetic, missile, and laser weapons all having the EXACT same stats for everything. Then as a function of balance changes can be made to increase the effectiveness of different weapons in different situations, but only AFTER balancing is down on the various "ranges". The current weapon effectiveness is balanced at some concentration per ship against some sort of fleet, or it has been organically balanced. In either case, it isn't working as intended and needs to be addressed.



I'm also a fan of doing away with range categories and finding a better way of structuring the system. The current system lacks face validity. Our "long range" weapons take four times the amount of time to hit the enemy than our "short range" weapons. The counter to "long range" weapons is to use more "short range" weapons, but during the "long range" phase. That makes no sense.

Phases ie ranges aren't symmetrical, if a ship is killed during long range phase it won't be in next phases. If a ship is killed during mid range phase it won't be in close range phase. If a ship is heavily damages during long range phase it will die sooner during mid range phase. Now if you don't see any influence of this in your rules, ie they include this element, then ok.



For the current system it's quite possible that a simplification would be better, but before I think that the current problem is many in game missing information and too many undocumented features and they should be documented in game.