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[EXP] Ship Design

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12 years ago
Mar 28, 2013, 10:40:33 PM
Affinity wrote:
I don't find them dumb or flat.....I'd say there's just enough level of complexity. Missiles act very very differently from beam, and beam from kinetics. Missiles fire first, and do a lot of damage, but flak is the most efficient defense. Beams are a great all around weapon, but have the lowest damage potential. Kinetics are hard to use, because they are effective only in melee, but they are difficult to defend against and can do massive damage. I think these differences are great, and with the retrofit mechanic large scale fleet engagements can become very interesting. These proposed changes would flatten most of these very unique characteristics for each weapon type



I don't know why they want to change all the weapons to the same damage formula.....it will make it easier to understand but much much much more boring. Not to mention giving the range option for all weapon types would simply make there be virtually no difference between the weapon types. The ONLY difference would be which defense type counters each weapon. So actually, I feel like these changes would actually make the game MORE flat, whereas now there are interesting, subtle mechanics to the weapon types that you can exploit.




I kinda of agree with you. Igncom1 is right too. I wish they'd keep the way it works now, only modify it.
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12 years ago
Mar 29, 2013, 10:12:32 AM
All looks good except the instant kill module. I think it's against common sense to have a piece of game mechanic to allow instant kill.
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12 years ago
Mar 29, 2013, 11:00:42 AM
Nasarog wrote:
I kinda of agree with you. Igncom1 is right too. I wish they'd keep the way it works now, only modify it.




I don't share that view. The current gameplay only make us fiddle with the ratio of each weapon and defense types, the range of what we can really do with our designs is rather limited. I'm thrilled with the idea that each weapon types may have long, medium and short ranged versions; that way we will be able to focus on 1 or 2 weapon research and not be forced to have all 3. I like to have more toys to try...
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12 years ago
Mar 29, 2013, 1:40:28 PM
Foraven wrote:
I don't share that view. The current gameplay only make us fiddle with the ratio of each weapon and defense types, the range of what we can really do with our designs is rather limited. I'm thrilled with the idea that each weapon types may have long, medium and short ranged versions; that way we will be able to focus on 1 or 2 weapon research and not be forced to have all 3. I like to have more toys to try...




Agreed. Ship design is not complicated enough.



kgptzac wrote:
All looks good except the instant kill module. I think it's against common sense to have a piece of game mechanic to allow instant kill.




I don't like that either smiley: frown
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12 years ago
Mar 29, 2013, 8:01:10 PM
Foraven wrote:
I don't share that view. The current gameplay only make us fiddle with the ratio of each weapon and defense types, the range of what we can really do with our designs is rather limited. I'm thrilled with the idea that each weapon types may have long, medium and short ranged versions; that way we will be able to focus on 1 or 2 weapon research and not be forced to have all 3. I like to have more toys to try...




Well, if each weapon type has 3 versions to it, then they would have to program the A.I. to contend with 9 possible variables vs. the current 3.
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12 years ago
Mar 29, 2013, 8:37:37 PM
Foraven wrote:
I don't share that view. The current gameplay only make us fiddle with the ratio of each weapon and defense types, the range of what we can really do with our designs is rather limited. I'm thrilled with the idea that each weapon types may have long, medium and short ranged versions; that way we will be able to focus on 1 or 2 weapon research and not be forced to have all 3. I like to have more toys to try...




It'll be weird having long range kinetics after all these months... But at least my wound is slightly healed (figuring out that kinetics aren't viable first time playing smiley: cry ) By allowing to go only kinetics, but using several versions of it.





Nasarog wrote:
Well, if each weapon type has 3 versions to it, then they would have to program the A.I. to contend with 9 possible variables vs. the current 3.




Yay, the AI will be more of a challenge smiley: stickouttongue
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12 years ago
Mar 30, 2013, 1:14:43 AM
whosdriving wrote:
I think we are going to need to be able to have more ship designs. i mean i run out as it is, with all these extra options we are definetly going to need more than 10 slots


Igncom1 wrote:
Indeed, the ability to expand out the ship types box to include a vast amount of space for various ship designs and ones seen to be used by your enemy's would be cool.


Stealth_Hawk wrote:
We will definitely need more than 10 slots.



Perhaps if they add boarding to the game, than, like Igncom said, there could be slots for where an enemy design would go if you had taken control of it.


I strongly agree with all three of you. Even at present, the hard cap of only 10 concurrent designs is a problem; there is no need for it to be so arbitrarily limited, and the lack of a greater scope does harm to player choice. With the expansion, it's going to be "problem-squared" if the cap is not raised by a significant amount (e.g., 21 or more; each row in the Available Ship Designs box is wide enough for 7 designs). Heck, the UI already has a nonfunctional vertical scrollbar for that box; let's make it work, shall we?
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12 years ago
Mar 31, 2013, 12:51:24 PM
I would definitely like to see some weapons/defenses only fitting on the larger ships, and a couple (of each) only on a dread... that will make building larger ships a necessity, and remove all this glass-cannon destroyers are the apex of design stuff. They shouldn't be able to scratch a dread with the right defences, and a broadside from a dread should be able to kill multiple destroyers.
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12 years ago
Mar 31, 2013, 12:54:47 PM
Prof._von_Calamity wrote:
I strongly agree with all three of you. Even at present, the hard cap of only 10 concurrent designs is a problem; there is no need for it to be so arbitrarily limited, and the lack of a greater scope does harm to player choice. With the expansion, it's going to be "problem-squared" if the cap is not raised by a significant amount (e.g., 21 or more; each row in the Available Ship Designs box is wide enough for 7 designs). Heck, the UI already has a nonfunctional vertical scrollbar for that box; let's make it work, shall we?




I agree, with more types of ships, and more weapons/defences why not have unlimited designs, or, at the very least top them at, say, 32?
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12 years ago
Apr 2, 2013, 11:29:35 PM
Meedoc wrote:


Rational

.




Great stuff, but all I can say (AGAIN, since beta and release and for ages now smiley: frown) is:



Please[/size] give us the ability to have more than the measly 10 ship designs at once! What with new special slots, fighters and bombers and invasion options coming, there's no way a measly 10 designs is going to be sensible - and to be honest, it should never have been limited like this in the first place.





Come on, there are scroll-bars in all the menus (ship designs, build bar, build queue, fleets) so the size of the list isn't an issue, but to be artificially limited to 10 ship designs at once is a real pain for the more creative amongst us who wish to have specialised ships and fleets of differing compositions. I suspect all you need to do is edit a game setting (that sadly isn't in the XML, even though the localisation references it for the 'maximum designs reached' message) that will uncap it from 10.
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12 years ago
Apr 2, 2013, 11:57:00 PM
The_Doctor wrote:
Great stuff, but all I can say (AGAIN, since beta and release and for ages now smiley: frown) is:



Please[/size] give us the ability to have more than the measly 10 ship designs at once! What with new special slots, fighters and bombers and invasion options coming, there's no way a measly 10 designs is going to be sensible - and to be honest, it should never have been limited like this in the first place.





Come on, there are scroll-bars in all the menus (ship designs, build bar, build queue, fleets) so the size of the list isn't an issue, but to be artificially limited to 10 ship designs at once is a real pain for the more creative amongst us who wish to have specialised ships and fleets of differing compositions. I suspect all you need to do is edit a game setting (that sadly isn't in the XML, even though the localisation references it for the 'maximum designs reached' message) that will uncap it from 10.[/QUOTE]





Igncom1 brought this up earlier. I agree, 150% lol



I have trouble as it is with 10 slots, Because I have 4 strategy types of ships that I use.
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12 years ago
Apr 3, 2013, 3:07:28 PM
Stealth_Hawk wrote:
Igncom1 brought this up earlier. I agree, 150% lol



I have trouble as it is with 10 slots, Because I have 4 strategy types of ships that I use.




I've been begging them to just lift the limit since beta - I'm almost convinced it's just a setting they've put as '10' for some fathomless reason, and would at least like the option to mod it. The menu/GUI support - scroll bars etc - is all in there, and I get so annoyed every time I have to limit my design experimentation.
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12 years ago
Apr 6, 2013, 7:23:56 PM
If you would like to share the secrets of the UI, please inform me.
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12 years ago
Apr 7, 2013, 2:43:35 AM
iblise wrote:
Mod away, simple matter of changing 10 to whatever number you desire




No, it's not. Otherwise we'd have done it months ago.
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12 years ago
Apr 10, 2013, 11:13:48 PM
Until i see how the different bonuses play out, I don't see why I would take melee range over long.



Long range is innately better in the current game, and with this system the type of weapon no longer holds me away from long range.



So what do I get with melee range weapons that would entice me to take them?
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12 years ago
Apr 19, 2013, 3:19:30 AM
They should make it so that the longer ranged modules take up more tonnage, hit less damage, and have less accuracy. The longer ranged weapons should be used to take out the enemy's shields and closer ranged weapons hit more damage and are more efficient.
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12 years ago
Apr 19, 2013, 9:54:33 AM
Meedoc wrote:
Defense Property



TYPE: Kinetic, Laser or Missile

LEVEL: 1, 2 or 3

DEFENSE: Defense level of the module

EVADE: Certain modules have a negative evasion score because they make the ship heavier.

WEIGHT: Tonnage used by the module

COST : Industry cost of the module



Wait... Evade is reduced by particularly heavy modules... so that means the module has a high Tonnage... so why not just make Evade dependent on Weight?

I'm thinking something relating to the percentage of used tonnage to max... under a certain percent there is no more gain to evasion.



Let's say 75% of max weight is the maximum evasion.

So a ship with 200 max tonnage would be at it's best evade with only 150 used. That would make 175 the middle ground and the full 200 would make it the worst on evasion.

Get the tech for +10% tonnage so max is 220. Makes best evade be 165 and middle ground at 192.5 tonnage.



Yeah, I'm probably a bit late on finding this thread... but if the system isn't set in stone yet, this could be a method to make creation even more diverse because now components can be forgone to boost evasion beyond what any specific components may grant.

Looks like engines are targeted to influence evasion as well... so if the overall tonnage of the ship impacts evasion then the evasion granted by an engine shouldn't grant less then 50% of the evasion the ship loses by adding the engine. Some engines could even be better for evasion then for speed, granting more evasion then the weight of the engine deducts... though, I am guessing that engines that are more favorable to evasion over speed has already been considered.
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12 years ago
Apr 20, 2013, 4:49:51 AM
Esperologist wrote:
Wait... Evade is reduced by particularly heavy modules... so that means the module has a high Tonnage... so why not just make Evade dependent on Weight?




You have a point, and would actually give the less tonnage space pilgrims happy that they can't fit another death blaster.
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12 years ago
Apr 20, 2013, 10:10:08 AM
A dependency of evade on weight would introduce the problem that the capacity upgrades in the science part of the techtree might end up as a downgrade due to evasion losses caused by filling up more space in the ship.

Lorewise, the capacity upgrades seem to reduce extensive structures in the ship that should also have a weight to require less volume. So the overall volume of the ship never changes at any rate. Just two things could change: Density and the inertia tensor (the mathematical construct describing the inertia of the ship being rotated along three symmetry achses)

What would change if you included a objects of different densities is that you change the mean density of the ship slightly and the inertia tensor possibly a lot. Try imagining a stick you want to turn. As long as the stick is balanced, so has the same density all over the object, e.g. rolling the stick in your hand is easy and whirling it is at least possible without major problems.

Now put a weight on a side of the stick. Rolling the stick becomes an issue now, as you introduced this unbalance.

The same way you can make whirling the stick harder, by putting a weight on the ends of the stick.

If you, on the other hand, add weight in the middle of the stick, perhaps replacing a part of the stick with lead, right where you hold it, in the center of mass, neither rolling nor whirling will be influenced, a lot.



This should directly translate into maneuverability and therefore invasion. If you add modules with the same density as the rest of the ship, add denser modules than the rest of the ship asymmetrically or add heavy modules in the center of mass point of the ship, it should not become harder to maneuver.

If you add denser modules than the rest of the ship in the worst case on the outside of the ship, asymmetrically, you introduce imbalances that make it harder to turn in a certain directions, a lot more predictable and therefore easier to hit.



To conclude, I think it makes some sense to introduce evasion maluses on the weight of individual modules, gameplaywise because of the capacity bonuses in the techtree and physics wise due to us not having any say in the placement of the modules, so heavy modules are more prone to really add imbalances.
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