I am not sure if food relocation is really needed if it happens "automatic" (like MOO2). I like the idea if it comes to blockades though.



Imho there is 1 big problem with food as it is apart from other "currencies" the one that grows exponentially - which causes the problem that every 4X game I have played so far suffered.

If you strive for the best race / picks pop growth is the way to go. I hadn't have much time to play the alpha until now but I think this is the factor that needs to be addressed - in which way may be discussed .

I think it is a good idea to have food automatically distributed from full systems to growing ones, because it is way simpler than having to set up trade routs or freighters.



It could work to have the transfer be at 100% efficiency, because you would still be vulnerable to having your systems blockaded which would cut that system off from the transfer. The same could be said for industry.



However, I still think cheap colony ships that can add population and supply ships that move industry to a planet would be very useful, because they allow you to choose where you put that food as well as to quickly develop a good system.

I am interested in your explanation for moving industrial out put to a different system. For example, it makes sense that freighters could ship food from one planet to another because food is an actual thing; a commodity. It is able to be stored and transported to where you need it. The same goes for population, but that part of your idea makes sense. How does one store and transport industry though?

It is simple, pack a ship full of tools, heavy equipment, and building materials.



At any rate, it doesn't matter. As I have said before, gameplay considerations should come first. The explanation can come latter.

Industry is an output. Just like Science. Science and Dust are global things, so there is no need to talk about them in this sense. Food, however, can be in surplus. No matter what you do, you can never surplus Science or Industry. You can not ship the work done on one system to another system. Your industry in each system works together on a single goal : whatever is in your production queue. Shipping materials and supplies does not matter if there is not enough population to use it. By that theory, if I had two hammers, I would be able to build much quicker. Sorry, not the case.



As far as game play coming firsts; maybe, maybe not. I think that goes on a case by case basis. But illogical explanations to ridiculous game play inclusions are what makes gamers upset. Being able to ship industrial output is a ridiculous idea.

I see your point.



Perhaps instead of being a Supply Module, it could be a Construction Module. The idea would be that it has the skilled workers as well as the tools and materials.



I still think that being able to move industry from one system to another, whether with a conversion that shares it with all your systems or a ship that sends it to a specific system, is a good idea. It would give systems that have nothing to do a purpose and would help get new colonies online.



PS: Industry can be in surplus, if you are building stuff that allows others to build stuff and shipping it too them.

Industry output can not be in surplus, as you are always building towards your goal, whether that be an improvement, a ship, or scientific progress.

That goal, however, can be in another system who you send supplies and assistance to.



This is what I mean when I say industry can be a "surplus".

Considering the computer you're looking at these forums (and likely the majority of the things in your house including your house) has parts from probably at least three different countries and built in a fourth, I'd say that while the abstract idea of industrial output may not be transportable, the practice of doing so is valid. Whether this is modular parts, shipping and transport, design, storage, industry can be spread across many places. What can not is the direct manufacturing of any given part - you're not going to use 4 factories to build 1 screw. However, you can use 1 factory to build the engine while another builds the chassis and a third to bring it all together.

sagittary wrote:
... you're not going to use 4 factories to build 1 screw.

I take issue with this assertion that I won't use 4 factories to build 1 screw. I might. Because I'm just being argumentative. Like for instance, one factory could mine metal, another factory could purify it into a usable stock material, another factory could use that material to machine screws, and a final factory could be used for distribution and advertising. That last one's a bit of a stretch, but hey I haven't had my coffee yet.

i agree its a gd idea cos having loads of food directly incressing pop growth isn't the most realistic system other games like deadlock pop growth was based on population which you had to move some popuation to get faster growth and helpt with overpopulation(which you could add transports to move population to other systems for example) and food is and always will be a comodity and major resorce to survie which it was in deadlock and if say a mineing colony was cut off from food then they would start to starve and of cource cut you off from the resorces adding extra strategy.

Could there be a way to "autonomize" the process of stabilizing food resources? Although I like the idea of using ships to move surplus food, in larger games, I don't think this is very feasible.

It is something that is done automatically, by fleets of commercial vessels. This makes me wonder: could the re-allocation of food be added to the tech tree somewhere?

I'm only about an hour into this game, but figured I'd throw in my 2 bits.

@something blue: Yes I'm aware of that but it seems still a little odd to give orders this way

"You bunch of a million go into any production facility, farm, researchcenter or bank you can find and start working there." as opposed to "You bunch.. theres the factory. lets go."

it all depends. Some games economic is best, some tech. It all depends on how you play and the game. but yes i like pop growth in es as a tactic.

Mimic wrote:
I am not sure if food relocation is really needed if it happens "automatic" (like MOO2). I like the idea if it comes to blockades though.



Imho there is 1 big problem with food as it is apart from other "currencies" the one that grows exponentially - which causes the problem that every 4X game I have played so far suffered.

If you strive for the best race / picks pop growth is the way to go. I hadn't have much time to play the alpha until now but I think this is the factor that needs to be addressed - in which way may be discussed .

I does seem that food is by far the most important resource when a colony is growing, because it forms the base of the colony's productivity.



I think that dust may also be a little off, because if you go for an economic strategy you can crank up the tax rate and gain much while loosing less. I favor making it so that taxes affect dust and industry, and approval affects food and science.



Edit: It then completes the symmetry of the choices. Heroes choose between food and industry or dust and science, and tech chooses between food and dust or industry and science.

i say give a secondary use for food like some of the colony modules costing food resources but not dust this would be for money gaining modules like xenotravel galactic trading center and adaptive taxation since it would make more sense than dust usage.

would put a emphasis on food also be a lighter load on dust. while industry and science modules keep on using dust

(3) Make the food cost of new population points increase based on total imperial population. This would prevent growth from being too slow in the early game and too fast in the late game. Population will be generated quickly on core worlds and slowly on outposts, but you just move it to where it is needed. If food for growth varied with the population of a system then that encourages you to spread out your population, but the idea will be to allow the population to be generated on agricultural worlds and then move to the frontier.

That is already the case, but only system-wide though:

/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/9708-how-pop-growth-works

(4) Make it so that, when a colony is full, food is distributed among the growing colonies at 50% (possibly higher) efficiency. This is similar to the conversions you can use with industry and is, I think, a better way of dealing with this than the late game building that converts it to industry.

You'd have to rebalance the whole game for that, or your suggestion would break it, consider what I wrote earlier:

/#/endless-space/forum/27-general/thread/7423-what-s-surplus-food-good-for

Indeed, for instance I have a system with 170 extra food, with 16 pop and 52% growth per turn (2 turns for a new pop). If I could transfer this food to new size 1 planets, I could add around +600% growth total to them (+6 pop per turn), which is 12 times more efficient! That would break the game...

I have another suggestion : what if you could distribute not food, but population? Sure, if you could do via colonization ships it would be nice, but what about if you could do without them? You could have a colony build a "move population" project, which would for instance transfer population into a empire-wide "population bank", and then you could just redeploy that population on a system you wanted. (probably only one that is not under a blockade...) Redeploying could have additional costs, maybe dust costs, if that was a new underdeveloped system...

I am accounting for the boost in growth to small colonies by making it so that the the surplus food a colony gets is determined by its population and the cost for population increases linearly. The idea is that the increase of productivity from tech is countered by the colonizing of increasingly less fertile planets, also allowed by tech. Pop on small colonies will grow faster with time, but primarily because pop on max ones stops growing.



I am just putting the finishing touches on Food, the Ugly Duckling 3.0 and will release it soon. Consider this a sneak peek

I think that dust may also be a little off, because if you go for an economic strategy you can crank up the tax rate and gain much while loosing less. I favor making it so that taxes affect dust and industry, and approval affects food and science.

Until late game, IMHO, food and industry (and there's also science!) are much more important than dust. So cranking up the tax rate is a bad idea, even with the humans...

BlueTemplar wrote:


I have another suggestion : what if you could distribute not food, but population? Sure, if you could do via colonization ships it would be nice, but what about if you could do without them? You could have a colony build a "move population" project, which would for instance transfer population into a empire-wide "population bank", and then you could just redeploy that population on a system you wanted. (probably only one that is not under a blockade...) Redeploying could have additional costs, maybe dust costs, if that was a new underdeveloped system...

Again, moving population is not the answer. If you move population then you will be in danger of starving the systems. It is possible it could work when you are trying to build a system and need population to produce more food so you can build quicker, but is that really necessary? You can already add a person per colony ship by simply colonizing another planet in the system. I just think using ships to transport population would be redundant.



I think the simplest way to "trade" excess food is an initial set up system between two systems. You create a transport ship and equip it with a new civilian module that has to do with food transportation. Each module takes 2 food per turn from the home system and delivers 1 food per turn to the target system. Then, via a new command, you choose the home system and target system and the ship/s automatically travel back and forth between the system until the transaction is cancelled, and the food on the systems return to normal. These trades would be limited to 1 full turn of moves between systems, and each travel would take a full turn if not all moves are used (In all actuality, each module would take 4 food from the home system, and deliver 2 to the target system, but the transaction always takes 2 turns, so the per turn averages out). In this way, you could set up key farm systems to deliver throughout the empire.



The same could be done with industry if you wish, but it still seems intangible and redundant since there is already an option for non production systems (produce dust/ produce industry)