Monthar wrote:
I stand corrected. However, this means the description of those two improvements is incorrect as neither says it's per population.

Yes, the descriptions are wrong.



Yet how would you write them? My attempts all sound clumsy to me.



"+2 per opulation: on Planets around which orbits an Explored Moon" ?

Just adding the per population would suffice.

+3 per opulation: on Explored Moon

+2 per opulation: on Explored Moon

Moons in Endless Space have no population. Planets do. Were I a new player seeing this description, I'd try and find how to populate my moons, or how to view my moon population, so I can figure out if that improvement is worth it.



Which doesn't mean the description should stay as is. I'd be happy with "+2 per opulation: on Planets with Explored Moon".

That would be the preferred way of describing what it does, but I don't think it'll all fit in box.

Marthnn wrote:
Moons in Endless Space have no population. Planets do. Were I a new player seeing this description, I'd try and find how to populate my moons, or how to view my moon population, so I can figure out if that improvement is worth it.



Which doesn't mean the description should stay as is. I'd be happy with "+2 per opulation: on Planets with Explored Moon".

Well, this is now in the game!Congrats!

nice job thanks

Ok. Here. I took a couple systems, found a tiny, small, medium, large, and huge planet, and terraformed them all into Lava planets. I scrapped all the population boosters in their systems to get 'em back to starting limits, and made sure they didn't have and specials that added limits. Then terraformed them all up and up.



Here's what they had:



Tiny Lava : 1

Small Lava : 2

Medium Lava : 3

Large Lava : 3

Huge Lava : 3



Tiny Barren : 1

Small Barren : 2

Medium Barren : 3

Large Barren : 3

Huge Barren : 3



Tiny Desert : 2

Small Desert : 3

Medium Desert : 4

Large Desert : 4

Huge Desert : 5



Small Tundra : 4

Medium Tundra : 5

Large Tundra : 6

Huge Tundra : 7



I want to keep going, but that game keeps ending due to economic victory (even when I turn my income to negatives), but it should be clear from that that not only do population caps increase based on planet type, but the bigger the planet, the larger that increase becomes.



So yea. As far as best production planet (Gas excluded), turning a Lava Planet into a Jungle one on a tiny planet I'm guessing is worth about 3 population points, which takes the 14 to 17 for a tie, and on anything bigger, Jungle is definitely going to beat it out, simply by having more people.

Yeah more forums need to support tables, it's a really good way to present data.

Population	Tiny	Small	Med	Large	Huge		*with Tec	Tiny	Small	Med	Large	Huge
Asteroid	1	2	3	3	4		Asteroid	7	7	7	7	8
Hellium	1	2	3	3	4		Hellium	7	7	7	7	8
Hydrogen	1	2	3	3	4		Hydrogen	7	7	7	7	8
Methane	1	2	3	3	4		Methane	7	7	7	7	8
Barren	1	2	3	4	4		Barren	6	6	6	7	7
Lava	1	2	3	4	4		Lava	6	6	6	7	7
Artic	2	3	4	5	6		Artic	7	7	7	8	9
Desert	2	3	4	5	6		Desert	7	7	7	8	9
Arrid	3	4	5	7	8		Arrid	8	8	8	10	11
Tundra	3	4	5	7	8		Tundra	8	8	8	10	11
Jungle	4	5	6	8	10		Jungle	9	9	9	11	13
Ocean	4	5	6	8	10		Ocean	9	9	9	11	13
Terran	4	5	6	8	10		Terran	9	9	9	11	13

*I included the tecs: Endothermic Structures, Psychological Insulation, Self Replicating Habitats and Living Habitats (+5 Tiny, +4 Small, +3 All Other Sizes/ +1 Asteroid, +1 Gas Giants)



So Arid does beat Terran for Dust on all planets (Once all Tecs are applied, unimproved Tiny and Small may see Terran Leading).

Jungle beats Lava for Production at all sizes

Ocean beats Artic for Science at all sizes

And Terran utterly destroys everything for Food.



It's also fun to note that the Crowded Planets (++) listed in the racial creation thread would actually make small and tiny planets better than medium. And since you start on a medium planet, your homeworld would end up being the smallest planet in your empire >.< -- well tied for smallest with all the other medium planets, but you get the drift.

Nice study messej.



On same topic, one thing I think should be interesting would be to analyse, by FIDS, the best planet per size type, for terraformation purpose.

Kick ass job! get this on the wiki i was wondering this question earlier! The jungle planets really surprised me--thought ocean worlds would top them.



*just wanted to point out my last game had 3 gas giant methanes in my 17 system empire

Kruos wrote:
Nice study messej.



On same topic, one thing I think should be interesting would be to analyse, by FIDS, the best planet per size type, for terraformation purpose.

Since the FIDS listed above are PER POPULATION, the size is irrelevant - and as far as I know, type doesn't effect max pop (Please correct me if I'm wrong here) - so the best type holds across everything except anamolies - which can easily be factored into the ALL numbers post directly under the first one to determine the best type for that anomoly.

Arghy wrote:
Kick ass job! get this on the wiki i was wondering this question earlier! The jungle planets really surprised me--thought ocean worlds would top them.



*just wanted to point out my last game had 3 gas giant methanes in my 17 system empire

If you still have a save from that game, can you roll over one of those Methane Gas Giants and tell me if I got the base values correct, and if not, what they actually are - thnx!

I'm pretty sure population cap DOES depend on planet type. IIRC, I surely had a large lava with a lower pop limit than a small terran

Late game I transform everything possible into jungles and oceans

and yea, methane follows the same 0 10 1 1 pattern the other giants do



I made this for comparing base values only for terraforming purposes

Yep. Just loaded up a late-game save point. Picked three systems and did the following terraforms - I noted the pop. cap beforehand and afterwards



Desert 6 -> Barren 5

Arid 8 -> Terran 9

Desert 6 -> Lava 5

Arid 9 -> Arctic 6

Desert 7 -> Tundra 10

Terran 9 -> Tundra 8

Desert 7 -> Arctic 7

Arctic 6 -> Lava 5



You'd have to figure out the specific bonus each gives (I did not mark size of the planets involved) but I would roughly estimate that the 'Fertile' planets, Arid/Tundra, Desert/Arctic, and Barren/Lava are tiered together that way. So planet type, including population, has to figure into the actual 'best' planet for FIDS category. From the numbers I got, I'd even guess that the larger planets get a greater increase in population cap due to planet type than the smaller ones do, since the change in a single 'tier' (Desert to Tundra) resulted in a +3 growth on a 'Huge' planet.



Jungle blows lava away in production if all that is true, because it's as vast a change as you can terraform a planet

Unfortunately the BASE values don't account for the "preferences" of the other tecs/exploitations, which is why I took it beyond just the base value to include the effects of the tecs. For instance, though Terran has the same BASE total FIDS as the other "Fertiles", it has a higher potentail total once the exploits and tec are considered. And even though Arid has a lower base total FIDS than the fertiles, once the system improvements are in place, it beats Ocean and Jungle, and ties with Terran for total FIDS.

Mouse over the planet sizes in the planet view and the tooltip will tell you the max populations for every planet type at the current size. Not doing it right now because I have work I need to be doing.

Right, I know that. I'm saying population DOES increase as you move up the chart, though. So a terran planet has higher population, which factors into exploits more.

nefloyd wrote:
Yep. Just loaded up a late-game save point. Picked three systems and did the following terraforms - I noted the pop. cap beforehand and afterwards



Desert 6 -> Barren 5

Arid 8 -> Terran 9

Desert 6 -> Lava 5

Arid 9 -> Arctic 6

Desert 7 -> Tundra 10

Terran 9 -> Tundra 8

Desert 7 -> Arctic 7

Arctic 6 -> Lava 5



You'd have to figure out the specific bonus each gives (I did not mark size of the planets involved) but I would roughly estimate that the 'Fertile' planets, Arid/Tundra, Desert/Arctic, and Barren/Lava are tiered together that way. So planet type, including population, has to figure into the actual 'best' planet for FIDS category.

ok - so looking at this data gives:

Lava->Desert +1

Lava->Artic +1

Barren->Desert +1

Arid->Terran +1

Arctic->Arid +3

Desert->Tundra +3

Tundra->Terran+1

Desert->Artic +0



Asuming there's some base adder for each Planet Type and assuming Lava/Barren is the base (+0) - these numbers give:



Lava: +0

Barren: +0

Desert: +1

Arctic: +1

Arid: +4

Tundra: +4

Terran: +5



We'd need some Ocean and Jungle <-> one of the known values to get the final info.

Also if it's some sort of % modifier, then we need size info as well.



End conclussion though is that Terran-HS Farms is without a doubt the best (once extra Food converts to Industry care of the appropriate tec) as that ONE extra man means an extra 40 Total FIDS on top of the overall better FIDS per Pop. And actually, it'll be even better than that, since I didn't include the +x% to System Whatever tecs, which will INCREASE the absolute differences. Hmm, actually, I should accout for those - so off to gather data I go, and I'll have it broken down by size and type in a day or two for you guys. But I'm pretty sure it's going to be Arid for Dust, Ocean for Tec, Jungle for Industry (pre food to ind tec, Terran afterwards), and Terran for food.

I did some number crunching today (because I was trying to decide which planetary terraforming to use) and here are my results:



These are "ultimate" values - meaning that I assume all applicable system improvements are in-system and built - because even if they're not, they WILL be; this also means I ignore the effects of Appreciation, as the effects are variable and system wide and therefore its impact on an individual planet's FIDS is impossible to accurately account for - also, it usually doesn't matter near end game as Improvements increase the system's Approval. Any tec that effect's an individual planet's Approval rating is included though (ie Corporeal Freedom)



For full disclosure, "all" improvements means: Public-Private Partnerships, Heavy Isotope Refineries, Interplanetary Transport Network, Advanced Optics Labs, Predictive Logistics, Science Caucus, Non-Baryonic Shell, Sustainable Farms, Xenotourism Agencies, Epigenetic Crop Seeding, Adaptive Taxation Systems, Wasteless Supply Chain Infrastructure, Corporeal Freedom, & Revenue Zen (Not all apply to all planets of course, but wether an inapplicabble tec is present or not does not impact an individual planet's FIDS, only the overall system values)

If I missed something in the list above, please point it out to me -- where it is on the tech tree would also be helpful (NESW)



All planets are listed as: Type-Exploitation (Approval Modifier) Food Industry Dust Science = Total FIDS

(These are the PER POPULATION FIDS values, so size/moons/Anomolies/etc are not included in the calculations. ALso, These values do NOT take into account the Food to Industry or Industry to Science Tecs - which may change the best planet in certain categories, but I'm not really sure how to account for those changes, so I'm leaving them out - you may adjust for these yourself if you wish)



Best Food Producing Planets:

1) Terran-Hyperscale Farms (-0) 15 7 12 6 = 40

2) Jungle-Hypersale Farms (-0) 14 9 10 6 = 39

3) Ocean-Hyperscale Farms (-0) 14 7 10 8 = 39



Best Industry Producing Planets:

1) Methane-3D Replication Plants (-15) 5 19 8 9 = 41

2) Lava-3D Replication Plants (-10) 6 17 8 6 = 37

(*Lava planets have considerably less population than Jungle planets at all sizes - the LEAST advantegeous ratio still gives Jungle a 3:2 advantage, meaning for comparison, Jungle would have an effective 21 production to Lava's 17)

3) Jungle-3D Replication Plants (0) 9 14 10 6 = 39

4) Desert-3D Replication Plants (-5) 6 14 7 5 = 32

*Please note also that even with the Extra Food to Production Tec, Jungle-3D Rep(23) still beats Terran-HS Farm(22) for production, but Terran counters with 2 Extra Dust, so the choice is yours.



Best Dust Producing Planets:

1) Hydrogen-Finance Commission (-15) 5 6 21 9 = 41

2) Arrid-Finance Commission (-5) 7 8 19 6 = 40

(*On Arid planets with Max Pop < 6, Terran's extra pop point actually puts Terran in the lead but this is smaller than the smallest Arid once all MaxPop Tecs are applied, so....

However, Terran's extra population DOES increase its other FIDS, so the extrta Dust production is coming at the cost of a better overall FIDS value; additionally the lack of an Approval Penalty on Terran planets may let you run at a higher tax level or with better FIDS bonusses.)

3) Terran-Finance Commission (0) 9 7 16 6 = 38



Best Science Producing Planets:

1) Hellium-Global Tech Park (-15) 5 6 8 18 = 37

2) Artic-Global Tech Park (-5) 6 6 8 14 = 34

(*Artic's lower population at every size actually nakes Ocean the better choice)

3) Ocean-Global Tech Park (0) 9 7 10 13 = 39

4) Tundra-Global Tech Park (-5) 7 7 10 13 = 37



Best OVERALL FIDS Planets: (Apparently maxing FIDS is a Gas... ;p)

1) Methane-3D Replication Plants (-15) 5 19 8 9 = 41

1) Hydrogen-Finance Commission (-15) 5 6 21 9 = 41

2) Methane-Any Other (-15) 5 15 8 9 (+3) = 40

2) Hydrogen-Any Other (-15) 5 6 17 9 (+3) = 40

2) Terran-Hyperscale Farms (0) 15 7 12 6 = 40

2) Arrid--Finance Commission (-5) 7 8 19 6 = 40

(Terran's extra Max Population makes it the best overall FIDS planet at any size - but it's mostly Food, so take that with a grain of salt...)



(See a few posts below for overall performance including Population factors for Size and Type - Anomolies may create exceptions to these conclusions, use at your own peril. )