VinceES wrote:
It IS relevant, as we spoke of territory "laws". If it is irrelevant, then you should be able to kill any enemy in this kind of state, whenever you're not into one of his own systems.

If you're in his systems, then it's an act of open hostility. It would be like running up to someone's home and throwing rocks through their windows. You would be vandalizing their property. But they are free to vandalize their own property if they wish. You also have to remember that your planets in their systems are not colonies, but outposts. If it were a colony, it would have its own circle of influence. It's not like you own the land in his territory, you just have a military base on there - and if he decides he doesn't want you there, he can kick you out.

I signed a Cease Fire treaty with Sophons after conquering there Homeworld, i thought ok 20 turns to repair my fleet and prepare for war again would be good. Now i have 2 conquered worlds which are in theire territory and they invade them with my bigger fleet just looking at them. Its there territory, we have a cease fire so i cant declare war for the next 15turns. Untill then all my colonies are invaded.

Is there any way to prevent this? It is really anoying.

Never will sign such a treatment (Cease Fire) again!

Due to the way that the cold war mechanics work though, you can kinda "fake" culture flipping because you are able to invade their system without them being able to respond short of declaring open war. So it can actually be useful to "revert" to a cold-war state with a faction that has a number of systems inside your faction influence area. Of course, actually taking those systems does cause a diplo hit in relations, but often you can juggle a fine line of keeping them annoyed from taking over their colonies, but not quite annoyed enough to declare all out war



Edit: also note that part of why this works is that the AI is very hesitant to declare war for the sole purpose of easing movement restrictions...

Thanks for the correction. But anyway, iiyonic's goal was to culture flip and prevent movement; the first is not in this game and the second is easily countered with real war.

Unfortunately, "Peace" is not a persistent diplomatic agreement which can be cancelled. Open borders, Cooperation Agreement, and Alliance all are able to be cancelled directly, but to go from Peace to Cold War again the only way to do it currently is to declare a "Hot" war and then an immediate Cease Fire. If you do the Cease Fire on the same turn as declaring war, the AI will not take an immediate diplo hit (it updates its feelings towards you at the end of turn/beginning of following turn) so you can usually do this directly. Then just deny the peace treaty which will automatically be offered 20 turns later if you want to maintain the state of Cold War.

In order to be at peace with somebody, you made a diplomatic agreement. Otherwise you are in "cold war". If you are at peace and do not want to be at peace anymore, use the diplomacy window to cancel the agreement. Note this will not allow you to "capture" other systems with your region of influence; this game does not operate like that. And if the other player is inconvenienced by your block, they can always declare war.

My question was focusing on the issue of whether it is possible to get into a state of Cold War while at peace, so that you can effectively block or outright capture foreign systems with your borders.

The default state IS "Cold War" - only by declaring a "hot" war or making a formal peace treaty does this change...

instead of declaring outright war, would it be possible to get into the state of cold war? I haven't seen any option for this in the diplomatic screen.

They shouldn't have to pay you any respect. If you come under attack while in THEIR territory, YOU should declare war if you want to fight back, otherwise your only option should be to retreat and leave their territory. You obviously can't retreat/evacuate a planet (well, I think pilgrims can? I don't play as them) but in their territory you follow their rules, and if that means you stay out of their territory then they can force you to comply, just like police.

Ah, I see. You're considering that the circle of influence defines sovereign territory, and that the outpost is there with the full knowledge of the other faction and should respect the faction's laws and customs. To do otherwise is an act of war.



I argue the circle of influence is more figurative than literal, and that the outpost was put there to eventually generate influence to counter the other factions' influence, and was never placed with the intention of submitting to the other faction's influence, and should not have to "declare war" to defend itself. The influence circle should not treat uncolonized systems like sovereign territory. Only a system presence, even just a fleet, can do that.



We're basically talking about someone saying "This is all mine," and someone else saying "no, it's not." While a standoff like that could lead to war, whichever side chooses to fire the first shot should be declaring war.

ObsidianWarlock wrote:
I kind of agree with Vince on this: Despite the fact that systems within a faction's influence are seen as "theirs," the AI should have to pay a tiny bit more respect to a rival outpost in its territory - even if all that means is that they formally declare war on you before invading.

They shouldn't have to pay you any respect. If you come under attack while in THEIR territory, YOU should declare war if you want to fight back, otherwise your only option should be to retreat and leave their territory. You obviously can't retreat/evacuate a planet (well, I think pilgrims can? I don't play as them) but in their territory you follow their rules, and if that means you stay out of their territory then they can force you to comply, just like police.

ObsidianWarlock wrote:
In a somewhat related case, I learned the hard way that if you scout into another faction's territory and find your fleet blockaded and unable to leave a system, you can quickly declare war, destroy the blockading fleet, leave, and then offer a cease-fire all in the same turn, and the faction in question won't change their attitude to hating you. This obviously only works if your scouts are advanced enough to hold their own, of course.

The AI isn't flawless in this game, but I've never really tried that before.

I kind of agree with Vince on this: Despite the fact that systems within a faction's influence are seen as "theirs," the AI should have to pay a tiny bit more respect to a rival outpost in its territory - even if all that means is that they formally declare war on you before invading.



In a somewhat related case, I learned the hard way that if you scout into another faction's territory and find your fleet blockaded and unable to leave a system, you can quickly declare war, destroy the blockading fleet, leave, and then offer a cease-fire all in the same turn, and the faction in question won't change their attitude to hating you. This obviously only works if your scouts are advanced enough to hold their own, of course.

The AI has blockaded one of my systems. When I move my own fleet into the system, I don't have the option of attacking the AI's ships. What do I need to do?

Fenrakk101 wrote:
This is completely and utterly irrelevant, since the world is not at perpetual Cold War. And we have open borders.

We do??? I shoot strangers and neighbors on sight. My neighborhood is rather empty... I like it.

It IS relevant, as we spoke of territory "laws". If it is irrelevant, then you should be able to kill any enemy in this kind of state, whenever you're not into one of his own systems.

But really, I don't like the system of borders, just unrealistic.

If it's cold war : then you just don't care about his borders. SO you could do what ever you want, but some action could lead to open war.

If it's not : then you should have at least small borders around each of the systems you own. That's the case on earth : the British have several small islands in the Channel, inside French territorial Waters : these islands have their own TTW.

But, I agree that, if your system is inside enemy's borders, you should have a malus for diplomacy with him. Because he WANTS this system...

VinceES wrote:
I work in the French navy. I often go abroad with my ship. ON the ship, I'm in France, but as soon as I debark, I'm in that country. The ship itself, being property of a state, is considered its territory, wherever it could be.

This is completely and utterly irrelevant, since the world is not at perpetual Cold War. And we have open borders.

I work in the French navy. I often go abroad with my ship. ON the ship, I'm in France, but as soon as I debark, I'm in that country. The ship itself, being property of a state, is considered its territory, wherever it could be.

I think it should just work for planets and systems. In space, borders are...well...useless ? You cannot say "this system is mine" unless you do not own it, with your forces protecting it.

VinceES wrote:
But, even if your colony is in enemy's space...it's still YOUR system, YOUR colony.

Not really. It's on their property. You're trespassing there.

I think that attacking ships IS an act of war, but a blockade, a real blockade, is also an act of war : you shoot at civilian bulk freighters which try to supply your colony (if they don't turn back when the blockading force tells them to do so).

But, even if your colony is in enemy's space...it's still YOUR system, YOUR colony.

In Master of Orion 2, you only blockade a planet if you're at war with its owner. And I completely agree with this rule. Now, it could be possible to have two states of war : "Cold War" : can blockade an attack a fleet IN YOUR SPACE OR COLONY, and "Total War" : can do what ever you want. The cold war would be the normal state between two specie before they agree about a non agression treaty.

SO you could still blockade to reduce enemy's developpement, but you could still defend yourself against these blockade, without declaring a war...

Rasanova wrote:
Sorry to reply to an almost 2-month old thread, but I'm having the same problem and this is the topic I found that seemed most fitting! So, I apologize if I am beating a dead horse.



It really is quite frustrating, I have a blockaded planet that I can not relieve. The AI faction had no trouble launching an invasion, which was nearly complete when my much larger force showed up to stop their progress. So am I forced to declare war, to drive off the invaders threatening my world? Naturally resulting in the most powerful faction in the current game hating me.



It doesn't make sense to me... The above Berlin example does not quite fit in my case. This would be more like East Berlin deciding to extend the wall around West Berlin without declaring war, and then not letting the local troops come home.

I shared this analogy in another thread, but imagine this:



You build a wooden fort on a lawn in the neighborhood. It's not your lawn, but you built your fort there anyway. Now, the guy who owns the lawn is pissed because he has this fort on his property, so he gets out his trusty sledgehammer and moves in to demolish the thing. You want to come in and save your fort, but it's not on your property - it's on his, and you would be trespassing to try to stop him. Legally, you have no right whatsoever to try to save your fort. But if you really, REALLY love that fort, you can rush in and fight him in hand-to-hand combat.



It makes perfect sense that your enemy can do whatever they want in their own territory, and it makes sense that if you're in their territory you have to abide by their rules. Don't like their rules? Declare war.