Right guys, what old traits you want me to keep in race customizing screen?



I am right now tearing almost all of old ones out and just curious what people thinks, is there any what should be saved?

Truth be told I've yet create a customized race, I keep using stock races everytime I play. I let you know tonight when I get home. Honestly though you're right boring traits are not fun lol. Off the top of head traits that are conditional are good ones if that... then this...



Knowledge Gathering

Dust Gathering

Death before Dishonor



I also like some of the unique aspects of the sowers and cravers... I'd like to see some kind of corruption element for the UE

Fleet size increase didn't affect my custom race - this was one of your 2.xx releases.



Also, can you limit pirates? Seeing a 207 ship fleet with 22k power inside 50 turns is just...wrong.

Yep confirmed. Custom race does not benefit from increased ship cap or from your increase; Only default races do. Also immensely dislike the bonuses you've modified for the most part - such as only now having a single scientific improvement as a 60 pick trait.



* on 2.0.7z, the "non-beta" link

I just noticed when I booted up the game that with your hero compliation mod, that cravers have x2 big fleet racial trait under the 1.07 (haven't messed with 2.xx yet)



Some thoughts... is it possible?



One thing from the getgo that has annoyed me about this game is expansion disapproval, good idea but poor implementation. It doesn't help that a number of these races shouldn't be anti expansion in the first place... ie Cravers (for example)



Is it possible to mod the expansion disapproval modifier to have a unique effect on each race?



example: Cravers receive expansion approval for every new planet they colonize. The better the planet, the better the bonus approval rating (terrestrial +100, gas giants +20 approval idk). After that, a negative modifier is applied, could be either per turn or per structure built on planet. Starts of minor at first and slowly increases this would force the player to continue to expand or face strikes or 'revolts' from his hives. Basically expansion disapproval applied in reverse, the less you expand the more unhappy your populace becomes.



Sowers, not entire sure, but something along the lines of agricultural planetary improvements missing from planets, or (better idea) uncolonized planets in owned star system apply a strong negative modifier that doesn't go away until the planets are all occupied (and producing x food?). The more undeveloped planets in a star system the more unhappy your populace is.



UE - something with corruption and gaft. The civilization is based on industrial giant models that are exploiting the masses for personal gain. They should strongly desire expansion as it would increases their wealth and they should be extremely unhappy with anything that threatens their wealth base. Maybe once systems are generating X dust per turn lack of expansion will generate disapproval? I haven't though this one out yet fully.

Fleet size increase didn't affect my custom race - this was one of your 2.xx releases.



Also, can you limit pirates? Seeing a 207 ship fleet with 22k power inside 50 turns is just...wrong.

For boths I admit failure was in my side, I am doing complete revamp of customize race screen and this means that something will be completly broken.

It's rather awful from me that so important part of mod is



Limiting pirates are quite easy, biggest problem is that I may too easily limit them way too much.

Yep confirmed. Custom race does not benefit from increased ship cap or from your increase; Only default races do. Also immensely dislike the bonuses you've modified for the most part - such as only now having a single scientific improvement as a 60 pick trait.

I will today completly change pilot/combat custom race traits.

Thanks for that science part, I must have forget it from economy screen. I will add to it similar than I did with production and money.

Also immensely dislike the bonuses you've modified for the most part

This is the thing I would like to know more, I admit that some / most can be rather bland and some elements can be bit confusing and I will look to both.

Is there something what really annoys you?

Is it possible to mod the expansion disapproval modifier to have a unique effect on each race?

most likely yes, but I am right now trying to get rid of races

I'd like to see some kind of corruption element for the UE

althought it could be easy to implement it's actually quite hard to think how it could work..



couple examples:

* diplomatical penalty (arrogance / others dislike to system like that)

* steady lose of money based to population (corruption, the more there is people the bigger lose)

* maximum approval content (people wouldn't like to live in corrupted system)



if this would have Sins market system easy solution would be to make it to harder for UE to buy stuff.





I can't see how corruption would stop enjoying expansion. Romans were good example of this: Althought corruption was almost mandatory there they still conguered half of Europe and problems hit when they weren't anymore able to expand (well not really because of that).

Fleet size increase didn't affect my custom race - this was one of your 2.xx releases.

Need more information of this problem!

There is skill under fleet which increses CP by 100 and 200.



Can someone replicate the problem with it?



It's quite vital part of one faction trait (you know that +100 hero exp -100 fleet cp one)

space_beaver wrote:
How do you think, is it possible to



а) increase a chance of getting a hero that belongs to your race

b) crazy idea here: instead of separate academy for one race, have all races choose from a single pool?

I really wish that either / or would be possible. These are both quite common issues players have. Sadly it's hardcoded (or well... I haven't find way to edit those).. I am giving this more thought after this project.

[code] Shrug for what it is worth I've tossed a few ideas your way, but frankly due to the challenging nature of modding this game, it discourages people. [/code]



It's between you ears! (just kidding)



But seriously, modding isn't hard and this game does let to do wonderful things if one just figures out how to do it. I am probably just climbing to the top of that iceberg thinking that I know everything where as most are still under it.



Sadly many thinks that taking little bits out of it is modding.



[code] On top of that that in the future maybe you could include a comprehensive list of changes you make to game play mechanics. This would allow people to better understand what changes have been included. [/code]



Hey, sometimes even I can't follow myself!



but seriously, I can't make that kind of list: most of my versions are so long and includes so much stuff that listing every possible thing wouldn't just be possible (and honestly I don't really keep track of what I do :P)



Basically when others changes 1 or 2 values in 1 or 2 sentences I change entire xml files inside of assets. I wish that I could really tell what I do but

for example when I added ability to terraform asteroids to barrens I changed 5 different values in 5 different places.



[code] And the entire 'heated' part of your personality makes it difficult for people to treat you with the respect you feel you deserve. What you've done is undeniably awesome, you've managed to go and change many of the mechanics something many people wouldn't even consider possible. However, when you rub their face in it, people tend to be disgruntled and either attack or ignore. /shrug [/code]



Well the problem is that hmm, using WoW terms: Level 80 player would have to listen level 60 players stories of how they solo level 40 instances.

Seeing these: "wohoo, I changed 1 value, I'm good" mods does make me rather sad because I have some ideas what is possible.



Other is that not many really understand how I am doing things therefore I get:

1) "can you release your changes" please

2) " it's impossible" comments

or

3) silence



actually let me show something:



[code]



TraitEconomy03Norm1

















TraitEconomy03Norm2

















TraitEconomy01Alt3















[/code]



[code]





































[/code]



That code I have added myself just because I did need way for every person to generate -1 - 1 science.

Now compare this to these: "It's hard to add something to code!" posts.

Hupailija wrote:
For boths I admit failure was in my side, I am doing complete revamp of customize race screen and this means that something will be completly broken.

It's rather awful from me that so important part of mod is



Limiting pirates are quite easy, biggest problem is that I may too easily limit them way too much.







I will today completly change pilot/combat custom race traits.

Thanks for that science part, I must have forget it from economy screen. I will add to it similar than I did with production and money.







This is the thing I would like to know more, I admit that some / most can be rather bland and some elements can be bit confusing and I will look to both.

Is there something what really annoys you?







most likely yes, but I am right now trying to get rid of races







althought it could be easy to implement it's actually quite hard to think how it could work..



couple examples:

* diplomatical penalty (arrogance / others dislike to system like that)

* steady lose of money based to population (corruption, the more there is people the bigger lose)

* maximum approval content (people wouldn't like to live in corrupted system)



if this would have Sins market system easy solution would be to make it to harder for UE to buy stuff.





I can't see how corruption would stop enjoying expansion. Romans were good example of this: Althought corruption was almost mandatory there they still conguered half of Europe and problems hit when they weren't anymore able to expand (well not really because of that).

That perhaps came across overly harsh on may part. What I meant was that I like the idea of traits, but they're both too powerful and too dear on both counts. Thanks for confirming the science issue - I generally play science-y races (DemoLith in MoO2 for example) and it hurts.



I think a more subtle change would be better, catagorize bonuses. I like the idea of +science per dust or pop. What about having these on seperate abilities, or +% science overall (But say 2/4/6% on a low cost, 3/3) for example, and splitting dust and pop growth in similar ways?

Hupailija wrote:
Need more information of this problem!

There is skill under fleet which increses CP by 100 and 200.



Can someone replicate the problem with it?



It's quite vital part of one faction trait (you know that +100 hero exp -100 fleet cp one)

Any default race starts with 205 (or 207, etc), Cravers 405 fleet size. Any custom race sticks to the default cap of 5 ships maxiumum, and the +100 cap doesn't affect them.



Edit: I think you'll enjoy this screenshot however

iamgory wrote:
That perhaps came across overly harsh on may part. What I meant was that I like the idea of traits, but they're both too powerful and too dear on both counts. Thanks for confirming the science issue - I generally play science-y races (DemoLith in MoO2 for example) and it hurts.

Actually you did find best way to speak to me. Saying:" this is fine but can you ..." or "is ... possible" makes me ignore poster since I most likely do something completly different. Instead saying: "ok, here is problem and it's not working. Do something" makes me look to that problem and fix it.

I think a more subtle change would be better, catagorize bonuses. I like the idea of +science per dust or pop. What about having these on seperate abilities, or +% science overall (But say 2/4/6% on a low cost, 3/3) for example, and splitting dust and pop growth in similar ways?

Funny thingy actually,

I have put to my notebook changes I have to do before I can post.



Well clock was 23 and I had coded approximately 13 hours by then.. so I mistook that .txt file to my relase log and actually posted mod without noticing what I was lacking :P



I did put to my suggestion, though I think about yours. Those 60 point faction raits are meant to be powerful and skills which completly changes way player plays game.



Then there is 20 point skill which gives +1 fids (well one out of 4) per population and 20 point skill which gives 25% increase (huge price because these are quite powerful)



then there are bonuses for specific planets



AND



some government forms get innate science bonus



AND (ok ok, I maybe once again overdoing myself)



Alignment good gives research bonus (Neutral gives cheaper heroes with more exp and evil gives better ships)







Problem is that I sooo easily right now crash game :P (hey, haven't done it for last 20 minutes!)

couple examples:

* diplomatical penalty (arrogance / others dislike to system like that)

* steady lose of money based to population (corruption, the more there is people the bigger lose)

* maximum approval content (people wouldn't like to live in corrupted system)

Excellence ideas - corruption would only slow expansion if you're not generating enough payouts to people per turn



maybe for sophons (science style) - X science must be generated per turn or systems strike

Hupailija wrote:
Actually you did find best way to speak to me. Saying:" this is fine but can you ..." or "is ... possible" makes me ignore poster since I most likely do something completly different. Instead saying: "ok, here is problem and it's not working. Do something" makes me look to that problem and fix it.









Funny thingy actually,

I have put to my notebook changes I have to do before I can post.



Well clock was 23 and I had coded approximately 13 hours by then.. so I mistook that .txt file to my relase log and actually posted mod without noticing what I was lacking :P



I did put to my suggestion, though I think about yours. Those 60 point faction raits are meant to be powerful and skills which completly changes way player plays game.



Then there is 20 point skill which gives +1 fids (well one out of 4) per population and 20 point skill which gives 25% increase (huge price because these are quite powerful)



then there are bonuses for specific planets



AND



some government forms get innate science bonus



AND (ok ok, I maybe once again overdoing myself)



Alignment good gives research bonus (Neutral gives cheaper heroes with more exp and evil gives better ships)







Problem is that I sooo easily right now crash game :P (hey, haven't done it for last 20 minutes!)

I understand what you're doing with the traits - it's a game changer. The complaint I would have is that it to a certain point it restricts gameplay to a large degree. Going with master of orion for example - it was entirely possible to blend different bonuses in an easier fashion - such as production and research, such as going Democratic with + production. Obviously game mechanics in MOO2 were a lot simpler, so maybe this is what causes that, but I'd like to see traits being about half as powerful and half the cost they are as a more realistic middle ground so that you can either build on your traits with secondary skills (such as taking the science trait, then adding more + science). I think though you're going the right way as the points need adjusted. I'd also like to see whole numbers if possible, though I understand the limitations on the files makes it tough. It'd be maybe easier to have all items in multiples of 5 (5, 10, 15, 20 etc) and a limit of 100?

iamgory wrote:
I understand what you're doing with the traits - it's a game changer. The complaint I would have is that it to a certain point it restricts gameplay to a large degree. Going with master of orion for example - it was entirely possible to blend different bonuses in an easier fashion - such as production and research, such as going Democratic with + production. Obviously game mechanics in MOO2 were a lot simpler, so maybe this is what causes that, but I'd like to see traits being about half as powerful and half the cost they are as a more realistic middle ground so that you can either build on your traits with secondary skills (such as taking the science trait, then adding more + science). I think though you're going the right way as the points need adjusted. I'd also like to see whole numbers if possible, though I understand the limitations on the files makes it tough. It'd be maybe easier to have all items in multiples of 5 (5, 10, 15, 20 etc) and a limit of 100?

Actually Master of Orion is fine example:



Game did give you x amount of points which you had to use for several skills. Some of those skills were really powerful (ability to eat production, regenerating ships and so on) while others were bit weaker.



What I am trying to do is exactly same mechanism but problem is that there is so much more factors.



For example I am right now trying to solve following puzzle:

I have saved 8 planet spots for "having mainplanet" trait.



I have decided that each planet type has 5 point bonus, 10 point bonus and 20 point bonus (basically these could be anything but it's easier to think numbers divided by 5 or 10)



My goal for 5 point trait is to set approval of particular planet type to 10

My goal for 10 point is to give empire some minor bonus AND set approval of particular planet type to 10

My goal for 20 point trait is to give 10 point bonus AND give some interesting bonus.



PlanetTypeTundra +15 approval

PlanetTypeArid +15

PlanetTypeDesert +25 approval + production + some combat bonus

PlanetTypeArctic +25 approval + food +

PlanetTypeLava +30

PlanetTypeBarren +30

PlanetTypeAsteroids +35

PlanetTypeGasHydrogen +35

PlanetTypeGasHelium +35

PlanetTypeGasMethane +35



here is planet types (I haven't added already powerful planets).



Some ideas are simple:

Desert:

2nd point bonus is 0.5 production per people because one has to work with less materials in desert

3rd point comes from Dune



some ideas are questinable:

Arctic:

2nd point bonus is faster transfer for heroes between planets.. I can't figure anything better to suit to idea: "if you take fur out you are faster"

3rd point bonus is more health to ships because well... one has to create everything in quite hostile environments



in some cases I have absolutely no ideas:

Tundra, what kind of bonuses it can give? Reindeers? Lack of food?

Arid, got nooo ideas



in some cases I have faint idea:

Gas Giants, basically I want to turn these to terrans for race

Asteroids, likewise



in some cases I don't even want to try:

lava , why on earth anyone would want to live in lava? It's molten rock! (well unless you are bacter which eats molten rock, but then again then you really don't want to travel that much :P)

barren, uhm.. it's barren for god sake, you don't go to live there!







As soon as I figure these out I publish my next versio (well it lacks government stuff still and alignment bonuses)

I would guess that at the least, Gas Giants would make sense for a production bonus; Without getting too deep into "sci-fi science", gas giants normally have a lot of moons - you'd be able to justify extra production for that.



What are the baseline values for terran planets per population with no bonus?

oh and hmm, reason why I haven't today published any patches is because non premade race has any trait... can cause minor problems for ai :P

I don't see any issues - maybe drop methane industry down slightly, boost desert industry (Oil, anyone?) and drop arctic science slightly? Seems it's high for a poor planet.



I would also personally expect higher stats on terran - +1 across the board?

Those are developers values, I will change then as soon as I figure out how to change these..



basically as I see, idea of trait is to change race somehow and force player to play game bit differently.



Though I think that I just realized what I have been missing:

2nd rank for all of planet types gives ability to colonize that planet when game starts (basically same than tolerant but only with 1 planet and just using 1/6th of points... oh and having happiness bonus)

3rd rank is then that one which costs a lot but changes way player thinks about planet.