Here's an idea for Government types; I've included 8, one for each race. They don't encompass all race picks for each race, and there are changes. I've only picked positives that benefit either FIDS, Military or Economy.



United Empire - Ogliarchy

+10% dust per system, +1 dust per population, +10% trade route bonus



Sophons - Technocracy

+30% research, rich home world, +2 ship speed



Cravers - Anarchy

-20% ship cost, 50 res per CP destroyed, big fleets (Removed crowded planet, although obviously the vanilla race will keep this, but Gov to be reusable)



Sowers - Hive mind

Tolerant (Colonise all), -20% build cost, +dust per CP destroyed



Amoeba - Republic

Approval increase, +trade bonus increase, +trade routes, "naive"



Horatio - Plutocracy

+food per pop, +space on planets, +influence, +trade bonus



Pilgrims - Democracy

Approval bonus (Large), dust per CP, Res per CP, "Rebellion"



Hisso - Stratocracy (More like a democratic military state)

"Snipers", "Deadly weapons", "Masters of Destruction", +system defence

Also, about fleet sizes...



How is this? Btw...It was 78k power (me) vs 51k power (Hissho). I won, ofc

I'd still like to see each gov't have a negative aspect as well

iamgory wrote:
Also, about fleet sizes...



How is this? Btw...It was 78k power (me) vs 51k power (Hissho). I won, ofc

Still using 0.107 or is this from some other mod? (I have huuuge problems with getting AI to work) :/

I'd still like to see each gov't have a negative aspect as well

I want to somehow make game cleaner. 0.20x right now is really really really ugly when it comes to traits.

Thankfully buildings are quite helpful in this aspect







Oh no new versions for couple days, I have flu going on and it makes my brain completly jelly

Hisso

A stratocracy (from στρατός, stratos, "army" and κράτος, kratos, "dominion", "power") is a form of government headed by military chiefs; the term is derived from two Greek terms signifying army and power.[1] It is not the same as a military dictatorship where the military's political power is not enforced or even supported by other laws. Rather, stratocracy is a form of military government in which the state and the military are traditionally the same thing and government positions are always occupied by military leaders. The military's political power is supported by law and the society. As such a stratocracy does not have to be autocratic by nature in order to preserve its right to rule.

Fits the hisso society perfectly, as for negs, non military related construction / science should take longer. Is there a way to apply negative modifier to specific buildings / research techs? Basic non military people are 2nd class peoples with limit rights when compared to serving 'citizens'

Is there a way to apply negative modifier to specific buildings / research techs? Basic non military people are 2nd class peoples with limit rights when compared to serving 'citizens'

To both, yes. It basically just requires writing another copy of that tech or building and setting it's paths correctly. (you know, $(*stuff*) if you want it. $!(*stuff*) if you don't)

40 turn challenge in my mod:

Race: Swarm

Challenge: None system has ever more than 2 people unless distance to closest uncolonized is more than 4 jumps

Universum size: Large



I have to admit that I did stop at turn 30 just because controlling more than 40 systems at once did become minor chore :P

Hupailija wrote:
Still using 0.107 or is this from some other mod? (I have huuuge problems with getting AI to work) :/









I want to somehow make game cleaner. 0.20x right now is really really really ugly when it comes to traits.

Thankfully buildings are quite helpful in this aspect







Oh no new versions for couple days, I have flu going on and it makes my brain completly jelly

2.07 but with changes of my own; Weapons rebalance, ship HP modifications, fleet size tweaks, pirates tweaked

Could you be more specific with the changes? I'm rather curious about what you've tweaked on, well pretty much all of the above?

iamgory wrote:
2.07 but with changes of my own; Weapons rebalance, ship HP modifications, fleet size tweaks, pirates tweaked

Now if only I could find a way to let you share that file easily, I really would appreciate to get those parts done by someone else :P (well yeah, I'm kinda busy thinking how to break game).



Of course that would once again require changing name of mod (now that actually wouldn't be bad idea... this one is just to let everyone know that heromod is only small part anymore) and somehow making everyone know how huge part you have done.



Other option would be (think this carefully) is that we split this mod apart. You start from last heromod compilation (or where ever you want) and then start to add change you want. Since you have what I lack (you basically want to make small changes which makes game way more interesting where as I want to make huge changes and see whether those works) it would benefit everyone here greatly. I would give you every information about changes I have made (though I'm quite sure that you have noticed those already) and give you all the rights of that mod. Only thing what I would "demand" (might be bit too hard word) would be that your version would work and would be easier (as in get it to work and have fun with it, not having easier AI... I'm quite sure that you couldn't get easier AI even if you would delete portition which manages AI behaviour) for players than mine.











Still seriously sick, good think is though that I saw a dream of how to change that horrible monster called: "origin of race" to something more tolerable and nicer and what changes governments really need. (well it's going to be fun, if it works what I want to do it's going to change game how we know it completly)

Sometimes it's bit hard to dig through information...



I managed to now see that Iamgory dislikes my change of scientific thingy. So I quess I owe explanation:



Science and Money when directly addressed via traits are global variables. Where as industry and food are local variables.

Basically one can see this on: Industry = Science x 1 formula, it doesn't work as it should. It count whole empire wide Science and adds it to planets industry.



Since it's not possible (I tried quite many times) to either put formulas or paths inside of formulas (basically it's not possible to use either Industry = X * 1 or Industry = planet/science * 1) there is just 2 ways to pass this:

In a case of UE I set each planets money generation to improve science in global scale. This did sound fine and I liked it.

In Sophons case I was in deep problems, it wasn't anyway possible to replicate my original idea via traits. This is where I started to wonder what happens if I build a building.



Basically difference between buildings and traits is that where trait is universal factor building is always local. Therefore althought it's more painful to create buildings it's easier to manage those.



Of course this gives wrong idea to player. Where earlier players had this: "oh yay, I get something really powerful" they now have: "meh, it's a building".

And because majority of mod making / coding at general is making illusions for players it should be corrected.



I COULD add some minor trait bonus to Sophons and building but generally I like it this way.





Now about governments, I did read your post and I instantly falled in love.



It's just that I need to test something first:

If one can put inside of science: "unlock trait x" it's possible to make multilevel government forms.



Even better after that it should in theory be possible to make changing government forms...







If it's possible I am trying to see how easy it's to build rebellions to game.

As in when systems happiness lowers to 0 planets starts say 8 turn rebellion period and after that it either a) spawns pirate fleet or b) becomes non habited.

I'm not sure whether it's possible to change planets ownership and definetely it's not possible to spawn more AI players to game in the middle of game. (then again I shouldn't say that something is impossible)

Hupailija wrote:
Sometimes it's bit hard to dig through information...



I managed to now see that Iamgory dislikes my change of scientific thingy. So I quess I owe explanation:



Science and Money when directly addressed via traits are global variables. Where as industry and food are local variables.

Basically one can see this on: Industry = Science x 1 formula, it doesn't work as it should. It count whole empire wide Science and adds it to planets industry.



Since it's not possible (I tried quite many times) to either put formulas or paths inside of formulas (basically it's not possible to use either Industry = X * 1 or Industry = planet/science * 1) there is just 2 ways to pass this:

In a case of UE I set each planets money generation to improve science in global scale. This did sound fine and I liked it.

In Sophons case I was in deep problems, it wasn't anyway possible to replicate my original idea via traits. This is where I started to wonder what happens if I build a building.



Basically difference between buildings and traits is that where trait is universal factor building is always local. Therefore althought it's more painful to create buildings it's easier to manage those.



Of course this gives wrong idea to player. Where earlier players had this: "oh yay, I get something really powerful" they now have: "meh, it's a building".

And because majority of mod making / coding at general is making illusions for players it should be corrected.



I COULD add some minor trait bonus to Sophons and building but generally I like it this way.





Now about governments, I did read your post and I instantly falled in love.



It's just that I need to test something first:

If one can put inside of science: "unlock trait x" it's possible to make multilevel government forms.



Even better after that it should in theory be possible to make changing government forms...







Another thing I want to implement is major change to dictatorship:

"Main" planet gets unique building Palace which increases all stats by a huge amount.

Rest of a planets gets mediocre negative bonuses.



And if those 2 are possible I am trying to see how easy it's to build rebellions to game.

As in when systems happiness lowers to 0 planets starts say 8 turn rebellion period and after that it either a) spawns pirate fleet or b) becomes non habited.

I'm not sure whether it's possible to change planets ownership and definetely it's not possible to spawn more AI players to game in the middle of game. (then again I shouldn't say that something is impossible)

I see what you mean about science. It would be interesting if more could be done however beyond a simple +% or % per pop. Would it be possible for an "expansive" type trait, where science increases more depending on how many systems you have? Say, 1% for 1 system, 2% for 2 systems, 4% for 3, 8% for 4 up to a max of say 50%?



As for my own changes -



Lasers (Accross the board) are 20% weaker, 10% lower MP, same price.

Kinetics are 25% stronger, MP is 10% higher

Missile defences were boosted (slightly, about 5% since the numbers didn't really...flow? Some modules didn't need adjusted and were far more efficient than others)



Small, medium and large pirate ships lost 50% HP and x2 CP - so a small player ship is base 300hp and 1cp, a base pirate ship is 150hp and 2cp. However, with base 40 fleets, and 10 per tech unlock and 5 per class unlock, you can still hit about...90ish CP. Which means early pirate fleets are 40CP straight off. Even 20 150hp ships is a good 5k when your fleet struggles past the 3k mark. They can still waste you but it rebalances for the higher CP.

iamgory wrote:


As for my own changes -



Lasers (Accross the board) are 20% weaker, 10% lower MP, same price.

Kinetics are 25% stronger, MP is 10% higher

Missile defences were boosted.

This sir is what I've been waiting to hear. This sounds like a great idea, and is an interesting way of solving the current battle balance issues I've discovered personally.



It answers all three issue I have with the current battle mechanics, laser damage value superiority (versus numeral instant blocks/intercepts) , underwhelming kinetics performing due to most battles ending during long/mid range , and weakness to AI glass cannon missile spam (ships die easily, but missiles still kill me off from the grave).



Thank you so so much!

iamgory wrote:


United Empire - Ogliarchy

+10% dust per system, +1 dust per population, +10% trade route bonus



Sophons - Technocracy

+30% research, rich home world, +2 ship speed



Cravers - Anarchy

-20% ship cost, 50 res per CP destroyed, big fleets (Removed crowded planet, although obviously the vanilla race will keep this, but Gov to be reusable)



Sowers - Hive mind

Tolerant (Colonise all), -20% build cost, +dust per CP destroyed



Amoeba - Republic

Approval increase, +trade bonus increase, +trade routes, "naive"



Horatio - Plutocracy

+food per pop, +space on planets, +influence, +trade bonus



Pilgrims - Democracy

Approval bonus (Large), dust per CP, Res per CP, "Rebellion"



Hisso - Stratocracy (More like a democratic military state)

"Snipers", "Deadly weapons", "Masters of Destruction", +system defence

Let me explain why I don't like some of these:



First of all, you forget completly negative factors :/



now what I see on these races: (I shouldn't really go too far from developers ideas but some of those are bit weird... Why would humans want to trade with Amoebas? And what does the Amoebas wants from us?)



UE: corrupted, twisted economical power. Doesn't care about it's population and even less of others... unless there is some money to earn. Basically this is from game



Capitalism / Corporationism (wonder whether there is world like that): + dust per system (corporations), +% dust for empire (lead by major corporation), - approval for systems (people just don't like it), - population growth per planet (now think about 1800s UK and how people were treated there in factories... think about if they wouldn't have had any counterbalanced force and transfer it to 1000 years to future)



Sophons: Friendly buggers who treat everyone fairly, weak and not that good with mundane tasks but really good with thinking. Again directly from game



Democracy (hey, I want it! (and I like it)): +science per pop on planets (basically public school), - industry per planets (everyone is studying), +% research for empire (timelords! oh wait, I did mean absolutely brilliant thinkers) , -% money for empire (too much thinking is baad!)



Swarm (can we call it with this name, please :P) : Swarm is Swarm... think about Tyranoids or Zerglings. Well almost from game, actually this prob have been their main idea.

Swarm (how else to call it? Ants are neither Dictators nor Monarchs) : + pop growth for systems (well atleast until it has been eat dry), - planet size per systems (it's too hard to implement ever lowering planet size), + huge approval bonus (how can one rebel if one is drone? Though calling some Tyranoids as a Drone is bit too interesting), - research bonus for planets (but but but Ants are so great thinkers!)



Sowers: Workers, builders, dust eaters, Lithovore from MoO 2. They work for Greater Good and try to do anything for them. Again directly from game.

Theocracy (I think thats the name, you know the form where priests are in highest position): + industry bonus for planets (doesn't make sense really but hey, who cares :P) , + approval bonus (everyone thinks equally), + food bonus for planets (Everyone works for greater good), - science and money for systems (progressing becomes harder when there isn't right to think freely)



Amoeba: Eternal specie which has seen it all and lived through all, they treat others diplomaticall fairly but only to know how they should act And this is where I started to rewrite game

Got nooo ideas what government would work with them, I mean are they one creature or are there multiple personalities?

Can Amoebas have personalities? Actually how do we know if Amoeba have personality? It's not like they go out to write a books or sing a songs.



Horatio: Masterful leader, great heroes, not that great society. How I read their description

Cloneship (how else to call it? :P They are one person after all): + approval (when you think similarly from others you really don't rebel), IF possible: stagnant pop growth but building which increses pop count by 1.



Pilgrims: Rebellionists, Renegades, they live on ships and only build minor production to ground. Their Description is just so close to Solar Federation from VGA planets

Rebels (enemies beware: if you build deathstars don't leave open holes near your reactor) : I sadly don't know how to build cloaking planets / ships. + approval (fight for a common cause), + fids on starsystem (forced to learn to product in ships in case of emergency escape) , - fids on planets (can't rely on planets more than temporarily)



Hissho: Crazy maniacs (almost like football hooligans) who lives to fight on and on. I have biiig urge to just take those lizards from Mass Effect and implement their society :P

Hooligans (ok, ok, Stratocracy then): Cheaper ships (when your entire time goes to wonder how to blow your neighbourhood you have to be good at something), - health on ships (meh, defence is for sissies, true man fights to win), + fire power on ships

Yeah I know what you mean; I'd just really added positives to match government types. Negatives were to follow! The idea on Amoeba is the game description states they're quite decadent and have a lot of luxuary. Trade makes sense here. Why enjoy drugs etc and not make a bit of money?



I agree on Sowers. I can see the argument for Theocracy too based on their origins, and I agree. Their affinity is essentially Lithovore, and I was adding Tolerant on top of that (They're machines, lets face it. Whats a bit of radioactive waste to a walking toaster?). I also agree on the Cravers. I definitely view them as Tyranids in my own mind as well. Res per CP works though for them as thinking Tyranids, they aborb the genetic code of those they defeat, hence for example Zoanthropes being part Eldar DNA. A vanilla research negative is also perfect.



Hissho I would just go -defence mods not -health. They'd understand the neccessity of a tough ship, just not the shields to go with it, much like an old fashioned Viking beserker was ripping muscle and little armor.

iamgory wrote:
I see what you mean about science. It would be interesting if more could be done however beyond a simple +% or % per pop. Would it be possible for an "expansive" type trait, where science increases more depending on how many systems you have? Say, 1% for 1 system, 2% for 2 systems, 4% for 3, 8% for 4 up to a max of say 50%?

[code]
OperationType="Addition"

BinaryOperationType="Multiplication"

Left="10"

Right="$(ColonizedStarSystems)"

Path="ClassEmpire"/>[/code]



This adds +10 to empire research for every 1 starsystem you own.

To change it to +1% per starsystem it would be: OperationType="Percent" and Left="1". Now I'm not sure whether it's possible to change it so that maximum is 50% basically you would have to build If...then...else inside of that. (If under 50 systems then *use this formula* else give empire 50% research).

The idea on Amoeba is the game description states they're quite decadent and have a lot of luxuary. Trade makes sense here. Why enjoy drugs etc and not make a bit of money?



I agree on Sowers. I can see the argument for Theocracy too based on their origins, and I agree. Their affinity is essentially Lithovore, and I was adding Tolerant on top of that (They're machines, lets face it. Whats a bit of radioactive waste to a walking toaster?). I also agree on the Cravers. I definitely view them as Tyranids in my own mind as well. Res per CP works though for them as thinking Tyranids, they aborb the genetic code of those they defeat, hence for example Zoanthropes being part Eldar DNA. A vanilla research negative is also perfect.



Hissho I would just go -defence mods not -health. They'd understand the neccessity of a tough ship, just not the shields to go with it, much like an old fashioned Viking beserker was ripping muscle and little armor.

It's just that I don't understand Amoebas having luxuries... when you are http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/protists/amoeba.shtml you first idea is not to smoke a pipe. Actually it's questionable whether you have ideas at all :P.

Then again I once did read scifi book of race which born in planet with really high gravity field. They did basically look bit like amoebas would look like, their excepted life span was way under 1 day and so on. Can't sadly remember name of writer



If only it would be Archeon instead of Amoeba. It would be sooo easy to imagine traits, government form and affinity bonuses for Archeons.



I think that I did add 90% tolerance to Sowers. Problem is that I already have tolerance named faction affinity. I could in theory add 25% version of tolerance to government and add to 0% version those scissors too (or ability to eat trash).



It's just that I don't know that when tyranoids attacks against other ships does they eat population from there (then again that would make sense). Sadly food isn't global variable



For hisho you are right, other option would be to ban shields from them, add bigger base structure and think about defence.

Hmm a 1 or 2% bonus per planet would be nice, but very OP late game

I still wish that it would be possible to study multiple things at once or atleast change how game affects with those left over points.



Oh well, gotta play with what is doable.



How about implementing some kind of tax to empire level based to how many colonies one has?



For example following formula: Empire money = Empire money * (1-Colonized Stary Systems)

As in an addition or a subtraction?



My thought would be with the fact that there's already a tax rate (Your income) combined with dissaproval for expansion, its probably fine as is

United Empire: Emperor Maximilian Zelevas

Governing Body: Old Imperialism with Neocolonialism expansion methods driven by an Plutocracy of merchants/industrialist/aristocrats.



Strengths: Seeks to link the territorial expansion of the state to the process of capital accumulation. Industrial and trade monopolies control the prices of commodities by lowering prices paid and extraction profits from developing colonies. The ability to adjust economic pressures in favor of the donor colonies (races) goods and capital while protecting the private investments. Determination of how funds are to be used; forcing the recipient to set up counterpart funds; to supply raw materials to the donor; and use of such funds a majority of it, in fact to buy goods from the donor nation. These conditions apply to industry, commerce, agriculture, shipping and insurance, apart from others which are political and military. So-called ‘invisible trade’ furnishes the United Empire monopolies with yet another means of economic penetration.



Weakness: Limits colonial economies, reinforces class, racial and religious distinctions. Results to brute force to enforce rule and ultimately defeated by the unity of exploited people. Corrupt, uncaring, arrogant and self serving.



Society Bonuses

Positive: Approval is generated through profit. Wealth is everything or failing that military is needed to encouraged colonists



Imperialistic Expansion: Approval is dependent on dust generation (Or something along these lines)

Imperial Overseer: Systems with heroes gain % effectiveness for FIDS per pop.

Military Presence: CP + x% per pop produces x approval rating (way to enforce approval, only when in hanger, maybe?)

Military Outsourcing: Military construction rate is reduced by %x per FIDS/pop.

Merchant Marine: +10 Ship Experience on Empire

Economic Manipulation: Trade with other races produces some X% bonus modifier on trade return (Control the markets, control their economies)

Shipping Industry: Return rate from trade is higher then other races (Society is geared for trade)

Entrepreneurs: FIDS / per pop generates X% dust per system

Mass Media: Approval Structures give X% bonus on construction per pop for next 15 turns? (fool the masses, prop up the economy)

Economic Exploitation: Conquered systems generate x dust for next 10 turns per FIDS / pop (lock stock and barrel)

Privateers: X% dust is collected per CP for destoried enemy ships on victory.

Industrial Raids: Fleets in orbit of an enemy system gernate x dust per turn, where x is determined by fleet CP / system FIDS per pop.

Interest Rates: Total dust in 'bank' at end of turn generates x% + FIDS/pop of all systems. (Very small bonus dust generation dependant on economy)





Negatives: Everything has a costs and nothing is free.



Death and Taxes: Income per turn must be X per pop in empire or negative X approval for next 5 turns and stacks (or something like this). Not generating a profit per turn is really bad.

Growing Pains: Can distance from home planet be determined? If so the further a colony is from the home system the less income it returns.

Corporate Research: Science must be bought (100% of dust goes dust)

Adminstrative Expenses: Hero upkeep is x% more per pop of system. (Hero upkeep is higher)

Corporate Payoffs: Hero upkeep is +x% per FIDS of system? (Hero upkeep is higher the more developed a system is)

Standing Armies: CP cost x dust per turn where x dust is determined by system FIDS/pop when in friendly systems. (Cost per CP decreases as economy becomes more efficient, inefficient economies make for very expensive armies that are sitting around doing nothing)

Military Expenditures: Military retrofits cost X + FIDS/pop of current system.

Economic Sanctions: Trade route loss generates X negative approval per pop for next 10 turns if you declare war on someone who is not at coldwar status or lower.

Inspection Payoffs: Structure construction is +X% per pop on buyouts. (More payouts required on large pop planets)

Startup Costs: New colonies cost X dust per pop per turn when two or less colonists on planet (need 3 or more colonist before a profit can be generated)

Piracy: Pirates in owned empire territory generate x approval per pop and x dust per pop. (Pritates in your owned empire are huge negative effect on your approval and economy)

Trade Embargo: Planets under embrgo generate -dust per FIDS/pop (Trade embargos are really bad)

Operating Costs: Structures cost x% per industrial value of planet / per industrial value of structure per turn. (more developed the planet, the more expensive structures are maintain)

OccupationalExpenditures: Military CP value must be x% per pop of conquered system for FIDS / pop of system turns, or -X dust per pop / FIDS by approval rating of system. (the more developed the system the more military CP value is required for longer, more huge expense costs)





That is what I have so far, now I'm going to bed. The above will have to tweaked for balanced and whatnot, but basically everything is dependent on dust generation, not generating enough x dust has really big negative effects. You need to keep developing for a manageable but minimal bonus or expand and gain a brief boost to your economy per conquest as long as you have military might to back it up, you can't just conquer a planet a fly away. Is the above codable, within reason? If this could be pulled off you'd be able to develop a unique civilization compared to everything else that is in game.



I really like the idea of the UE but feel it is poorly designed in its current state. I tried to come up with multiple variables that generated dust based on the strength of the economy for systems (FIDS/pop). Negatives result dust generation loss based on FIDS value of system / pop and results in lowering the approval rating, and the more developed a system is the more it costs. Specific events cause actual hits to your approval rating (those ones are suppose to really hurt) pirates / embargo / declaring war on trading partners. Military expansion allows you to expand but comes at a cost when you maintain huge standing armies, at war though you generate dust per battle and per invasion, and nice +dust bonus that stacks on completion of invasion. Successful expansion of your empire has huge dust bonuses.