I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with lasers and missiles right now (just a bit too powerful), mainly that kinetics are too weak and the combat phase system makes it so that it can barely do any damage even in the 2nd phase (where the enemy will retreat after firing its beams/missiles, or they can straight up win the fight because they've already destroyed 1/2 your ships before the 3rd phase). Making it more effective during the 2nd phase and very slightly better in the long phase would help a lot (perhaps 30/55/90 accuracy instead of 20/40/90). There's not much that can be done about offensive retreats or just retreats during the 2nd phase without changing the system somewhat.



One thing about lasers though is that there are barely any cards that are meant specially for them (compared to kinetics and missiles). Combat would be more interesting if there were more cards for them.







Regarding destroyers:



I think the problem with destroyer-swarm is largely also because the -20% weapon module bonus is on the destroyer, and obviously with a ship with low HP and high damage output you want to get the most damage out of them (meaning you want them to fire before they all get destroyed), which is in the 1st phase. There is no real solution to this except by adding a mechanic (limiting weapons per ship, adding malus to swarms of ships/bonuses to ships fighting swarms, or whatever) or giving the destroyer another module bonus instead of the weapon one.



Even if you make flak more effective people will still make missile boats from destroyers because of the way they're designed. If it's just missiles in general you think is a problem, I think making the flak defense a bit lighter would be effective enough.

Igncom1 wrote:
Try adjusting the accuracy for the kinetics first, as you might see that they are more inaccurate then they are worth.



For missile defences, you could make the tonnage for the flak slightly smaller as to fit more of them on a ship.



And sheilds, if you improve the amount of anti-beam hp the produce per round to being more then the adverage beam module can create in a round then you might fins that you need less shields per tonnage to defend against beams.



(I am all for modding man, even if I don't agree in the vannilla game )

Well, glad you like modding :P. I think fixing the bullets fired to scale against the defense bonuses would yield more result without turning kinetics into another type of laser. I also consider adding a small accuracy bonus with levels, an experienced ship would both shoot more and fires more accurately as well. I will test that today and see if that alone makes the Kinetics more useful. As for flaks, maybe making them not get larger with tech would keep their effectiveness... In fact, i guess i could do the same with missiles so there would be no point in using the low tech missiles...

Dementophobic wrote:
One thing about lasers though is that there are barely any cards that are meant specially for them (compared to kinetics and missiles). Combat would be more interesting if there were more cards for them.

I hope the Devs plan on adding some love for the Lasers, especially some effective counter cards.

Even if you make flak more effective people will still make missile boats from destroyers because of the way they're designed. If it's just missiles in general you think is a problem, I think making the flak defense a bit lighter would be effective enough.

I'm considering changing the bonus destroyers get, just not sure what yet. Accuracy, number per volley, damage...

First off, let me say that modding combat is great, since it is the most interesting part of the game for me. So glad to see this work!



But I have to disagree wholeheartedly on some of these points.



Kinetics: As I have found out, they are very useful. You even say that they are TOO strong late game. Then you contradict yourself saying deflectors stop them regardless of tier. what? That is simply not true, a kinetics module will not be completely countered by a same tech level module of deflect, at any tier. I don't think increasing the number of salvos from heroes and leveling is a good solution, since this will make it even harder to defend. Also, if you can't limit it to only kinetics, it will magnify the destroyer missile boat problem everyone is so up in arms about.



Missiles: Yes, it is possible to overwhelm flak with just tons and tons of 1CP destroyers, but I think that is a ship model issue, not a weapon/defense issue. Flak is extremely efficient as a defense. Demen has the right idea. I think a much better fix would be to change the destroyer tech, or make it farther down the tech tree closer to the -20% defense mod ship.



Lasers: The downside to using them is they do the least damage out of all the weapons. compare the first laser weapon with the same tier kinetics and missiles (the one with 20MP). Each phase, kinetics will do (2-4 damage)*9 projectiles * 4rounds = 72-144 damage, missiles will do 50-65 damage, lasers will do (10-20)*4rounds = 40-80 damage. huh. So lasers are the most accurate, most all around weapon, but overall do less damage. Also, there are battle cards that effect lasers and shields...it is kind of far down the applied science tech path, but it is there. maybe consider moving it closer?

I'm considering changing the bonus destroyers get, just not sure what yet. Accuracy, number per volley, damage...

No! just make it close to the -20% defense module ship :P

I've experimented with that in the past and came to the conclusion:

With no modability of the actual damage-formulas, I couldn't really think of a good way that can both keep the diversity of different weapon-types and prevent that certain builds are much more powerfull per-se.



The current formulas of how defenses work are both unneccessarily complicated and very often lead to that binary experience that ships either are almost immune to a damage-source or die very quickly.



I think a similar mechanic for all three weapon-types that reduces the damage by a percentage instead of either completely negating it or blocking off a set amount would work wonders towards a better balance and overall feeling of combat-results.

Affinity wrote:
Kinetics: As I have found out, they are very useful. You even say that they are TOO strong late game. Then you contradict yourself saying deflectors stop them regardless of tier. what? That is simply not true, a kinetics module will not be completely countered by a same tech level module of deflect, at any tier. I don't think increasing the number of salvos from heroes and leveling is a good solution, since this will make it even harder to defend. Also, if you can't limit it to only kinetics, it will magnify the destroyer missile boat problem everyone is so up in arms about.

I re-read my OP and changed that misleading quote of mine. What i meant to say is that deflectors don't care what tier the bullet they stop is, low tier deflectors stops high tier bullets just fine, just less of them. A low tier flak can't stop a high tier missile, nor a low tier shield can stop a high tier laser. Kinetics rely on massive wall of steel to be effective, but nothing in the game improves that while we have tons of means to make that deflector more effective. Late game Kinetics overcome this flaw somewhat, but remain less effective than the other two type of weapons.

Missiles: Yes, it is possible to overwhelm flak with just tons and tons of 1CP destroyers, but I think that is a ship model issue, not a weapon/defense issue. Flak is extremely efficient as a defense. Demen has the right idea. I think a much better fix would be to change the destroyer tech, or make it farther down the tech tree closer to the -20% defense mod ship.

Destroyers still need something to make them useful later in the game. Right now they are the poor man warships, removing this would remove a big reason to use them when you can just spam bigger, more durable ships instead.

Lasers: The downside to using them is they do the least damage out of all the weapons. compare the first laser weapon with the same tier kinetics and missiles (the one with 20MP). Each phase, kinetics will do (2-4 damage)*9 projectiles * 4rounds = 72-144 damage, missiles will do 50-65 damage, lasers will do (10-20)*4rounds = 40-80 damage. huh. So lasers are the most accurate, most all around weapon, but overall do less damage. Also, there are battle cards that effect lasers and shields...it is kind of far down the applied science tech path, but it is there. maybe consider moving it closer?

Lasers rely on raw damage to overcome the shields, there is nothing in the game that block lasers outright. The game offer plenty of means to increase damage (levels, power mods, Heroes, Battlecards) so it's always possible to make them work even with a tech disadvantage. Also, they have the best accuracy overall, meaning they apply that damage more efficiently than the other two weapon types.

Ail wrote:
I've experimented with that in the past and came to the conclusion:

With no modability of the actual damage-formulas, I couldn't really think of a good way that can both keep the diversity of different weapon-types and prevent that certain builds are much more powerfull per-se.



The current formulas of how defenses work are both unneccessarily complicated and very often lead to that binary experience that ships either are almost immune to a damage-source or die very quickly.



I think a similar mechanic for all three weapon-types that reduces the damage by a percentage instead of either completely negating it or blocking off a set amount would work wonders towards a better balance and overall feeling of combat-results.

I agree, and that's part of my aim in trying to mod this. I want variety in ship designs and focus so there is no optimal way to play. I don't know if i can mix damage soaking, deflection and interception in the same defense module, that's something to try...

As many of you know, combat, while fun as many shortcomings. First the weapon types aren't balanced against each others or their defenses. Then you have some battlecards that are too good and last some hull classes are more advantageous than others. For now i just focus on the weapon balance...



The weapons:



Kinetics: As many found out, they are generally useless. The reason is it's too easy to defend against them up until end game were they spam so many bullets that deflectors can never stop them all. The main issue with them is that defectors stop them completely regardless of tier or damage mods; with good heroes or high level ships you can stop a lot of those bullets while there is no bonuses that increase the number of bullets fired. The guns have low accuracy so you need to get close, and by then you are probably dead...



My fix is adding bonus "NumberPerSalve" to level and Heroes bonuses. The problem: the other weapons will also shoot more if i add that, but still the kinetics will get the most out of this.



Missiles: The problem with them is how they are countered. Flaks only stop 3 missiles each phase, so throwing more missiles is always the answer. This lead to the infamous Destroyer swarm missile spam. The downside is you lose your ships before your enemy dies, but if you don't care about losing ships you can keep on doing it until kingdom come...



I don't see much fix unless we make the flak even smaller than they are... But that won't fix the issue that Ship Experience/Heroes don't do anything to defend against the spam while the spam just get more effective.



Lasers: I think the real issue with them is that there is no downside to using them. Shields block damage, thus if you bring more lasers and/or boost their damage, you will always overpower the shields (combined with the fact Lasers are accurate all around, there is no fault in doing just that). There is no real defense against them besides killing the enemy ships faster than they do it in return. Players can focus on Lasers at the expense of everything else and still win fights.



Right now i don't see any solution to this besides adding battlecards that boost shields... Making shields more effective would just make us use more lasers rather than switch to something else...



Any thoughts?



Edit: Look for the Fair Fight thread for updates on this.

Affinity wrote:
Lasers: The downside to using them is they do the least damage out of all the weapons. compare the first laser weapon with the same tier kinetics and missiles (the one with 20MP). Each phase, kinetics will do (2-4 damage)*9 projectiles * 4rounds = 72-144 damage, missiles will do 50-65 damage, lasers will do (10-20)*4rounds = 40-80 damage. huh. So lasers are the most accurate, most all around weapon, but overall do less damage. Also, there are battle cards that effect lasers and shields...it is kind of far down the applied science tech path, but it is there. maybe consider moving it closer?

You mentioned it, but didn't factor in accuracy. At the long range (first combat phase), Missiles are 90% accurate, Beams 50%, and Kinetics 20%. At medium range (second combat phase), missiles/beams/kinetics are 70/90/40 and at melee range (third combat phase) the number are 40/70/90. So, this works out like the following (using your tech level example):



(using average damages ... so 2-4 = 3 avg damage, 10-20=15 avg damage, and 50-65=57.5 avg damage)



Kinetics:

Long range: 3 avg damage*9 projectiles*20% accuracy= 5.4 avg damage per long range round

Medium range: 3 avg damage*9 projectiles*40% accuracy = 11.7 avg damage per med round

Melee range: 3 avg damage*9 projectiles*90% accuracy = 24.3 avg damage per melee round



Beams:

Long range: 15 avg damage*50% accuracy = 7.5 avg dam per long range round

Medium range: 15 avg damage*90% accuracy = 13.5 avg damage per medium range round

Melee range: 15 avg damage*70% accuracy = 10.5 avg damage per melee range round



Missiles:

Long range: 57.5 avg damage*90% accuracy = 51.75 avg dam per long range PHASE (missiles 'attack' once per phase ... launch on round two and potentially impact on round four)

Medium range: 57.5 avg damage*70% accuracy = 40.25 avg damage per medium range phase

Melee range: 57.5 avg damage*40% accuracy = 23 avg damage per melee range phase



So ... forgetting about defenses (for now), that means over a single combat, a single weapon system (and since all three at that tech level weigh the same) would cause the following AVERAGE damage:



(x4 kinetics/beam because they 'attack' on each of the 4 rounds of a phase)



Kinetic = 21.6 avg long (5.4 * 4 rounds) + 46.8 avg medium + 97.2 avg melee = 165.6 avg combat damage

Beam = 30 avg long + 54 avg medium + 42 avg melee = 126 avg combat damage

Missile = 51.75 avg long + 40.25 avg medium + 23 avg melee = 115 avg combat damage



Additionally, missiles for this tech level have a 20% chance to do x3 damage .. beam/kinetics at this tech have a 0%. Again, without adds (there are cards and a module that will increase your crit chance) missiles will actually do an average of 184 (115 + (115*20%*3)) damage.



So, again discounting defenses (assume 0 modules of defense), this confirms that missiles cause the least average damage, but get the biggest punch in first .. while kinetics cause the most average damage, but get their biggest punch in last.



Now, when you start throwing in defenses (and I'm not going to get into the detailed number crunching for them), then you need to account for the following (again, keeping it at the same tech level)...



Missiles: Flak attacks 3 times before the missile hits ... at this tech level, flak has a base 19% chance to hit, but the missiles evasion takes it down by 15 to 4% per attempt. This gives a bit less than 12% chance for a single flak module to stop a missile at that tech (flak will fire on rounds 2,3, and 4 .. the missile potentially hits on round 4 if it hasn't be intercepted).



Kinetics: A deflector module at this tech stops 7 projectiles per round. That means 1 unit of armor will block almost all damage from 1 unit of weapon at the this tech level (~2 projectiles his at long, ~4 projectiles at medium and ~8 projectiles at melee).



Beam: Same tech level shield stops 15 damage per round. Damage from a beam at this tech does 10-20 damage, so on 50% of the time a beam hits, it will be stopped and 50% of the time it will do <5 damage.



One thing that really jumps out is that missile offense vs defense is very unbalanced at lower levels ... while 1 module of equiv tech defense pretty much stops beams or kinetics, you'll need about 8 modules of flak to stop missiles on average. This does get better at higher tech levels though (for instance, at 14000 knowledge, decay missiles vs lepton shields is a difference of 30% ... which gives almost a 90% chance on average for one module of shields to stop the missile).

Most of what you said is true, this is a very good job taking weapon accuracy into account.

The crit damage for missiles was miscalculated slightly though, it should be 115*.8 + 115*.2*3 = 161



also, I think you misunderstand how flak works. It certainly doesn't take 8 flaks to counter one missile. i found this thread /#/endless-space/forum/33-strategy-guides/thread/14046-combat-mechanics to be very helpful in explaining it. A single flak actually has the potential to counter 2 or even 3 missiles.



However, if you were to take it a step further, and calculate out the defenses, i think you would find that if they are adequetely equipped, then the only phase were damage gets through the defense is the round where the weapon has the most accuracy. (i.e. missiles only do damage long range, other phases flak kills all missiles with ease) This is because defense works equally through all 3 phases, but weapons obviously don't.

This is going well, i may have a releasable version soon. I'm not sure my fix to the Kinetics works though, i need to get further into a game to see kinetic ships into action. But the other changes are going well so far...

Been playing a game tonight but haven't been able to get into war with anyone . I guess i still have a lot to learn about how to keep up with the AI, i'm always behind (even though i generally do fine when fighting the AI). Anyway, i guess my first iteration of my mod is ready for now, maybe someone else can playtest it better...



*Removed the old file*



Edit: Next time i'll post it in the OP.
FairFight.zip

Foraven wrote:
Been playing a game tonight but haven't been able to get into war with anyone . I guess i still have a lot to learn about how to keep up with the AI, i'm always behind (even though i generally do fine when fighting the AI). Anyway, i guess my first iteration of my mod is ready for now, maybe someone else can playtest it better...



FairFight.zip

Is there a changelog somewhere?

Dementophobic wrote:
Is there a changelog somewhere?

Sorry, forgot to post it here (it's in the mod Index though).



v 1.00

-All weapons of same type take same space regardless of tier (easier to balance that way, especially missiles).

-Kinetics improve their shots per turn with Ship Experience, Battlecards and Power Modules (Hero bonus not included yet).

-Missiles take more space than the other 2 types of weapons (hey, those missiles must be stored somewhere!).

-Shields are more effective against Lasers

-Changed the stats and perks of most hulls.

-Halved the repair of Nano-repair card.

-Adaptative Strategy card now add some accuracy but less damage (note, damage on the card isn't what was in the code).

-Rebalanced Ship Experience (Toned it down but added Accuracy and Shots Per turn modifiers).

-Rebalanced Self and Fleet repairs: Now the bulk of repairs is done between battles, not in battle.

Foraven wrote:
Sorry, forgot to post it here (it's in the mod Index though).



v 1.00

-All weapons of same type take same space regardless of tier (easier to balance that way, especially missiles).

-Kinetics improve their shots per turn with Ship Experience, Battlecards and Power Modules (Hero bonus not included yet).

-Missiles take more space than the other 2 types of weapons (hey, those missiles must be stored somewhere!).

-Shields are more effective against Lasers

-Changed the stats and perks of most hulls.

-Halved the repair of Nano-repair card.

-Adaptative Strategy card now add some accuracy but less damage (note, damage on the card isn't what was in the code).

-Rebalanced Ship Experience (Toned it down but added Accuracy and Shots Per turn modifiers).

-Rebalanced Self and Fleet repairs: Now the bulk of repairs is done between battles, not in battle.

I'll have a look after exams, I think it's better to just not touch the nano-repair and let Amplitude change it so that the repairs are temporary.

Dementophobic wrote:
I'll have a look after exams, I think it's better to just not touch the nano-repair and let Amplitude change it so that the repairs are temporary.

Well, let me know when you have tried it.