@Aureon: Your post is a prime-example of why I think that the different defense-mechanisms in this game don't make any sense at all. They are so hard to understand let alone balance, that even a mod whichs original intend was to do just that goes horribly wrong.



I really put my hopes on the Addon for that, where the formula is changed completely.

The_Quasar wrote:
Ok, still on old version (will update before next game)... now playing Impossible, normal, fast, Sophons. Still not spreading fast enough. Going to be another whitewash. Will play the new version on Endless.

If you really want a challenge, you should refrain from doing crash colonization early game. I can't make the AI any better at early colonization, especially if you pick traits that make colony ships cheaper (Sophons). I guess i should increase colony ship cost...

I have NullReference Exception: Object reference not set to an instance of an object. This comes up when clicking on a planet. Note: this planet is one of 2 Medium Jungle planets in the system.

Never happened to me. Do you use any other mods besides mine?

Maybe it's a coincidence, but I've had a good balance between good and poor systems in your mod, too.

Did not mess with system balance or galaxy generation yet. Coincidence most likely.

Ail wrote:
... They are so hard to understand let alone balance, that even a mod whichs original intend was to do just that goes horribly wrong.

Well, i more than willing to try to fix it. He does have a point that kinetic damage grows much faster than the other 2 weapon types, but i don't agree with his view on the purpose of defenses. I will rebalance the damage for each class of weapons, and will change the critical hit chance as well, may have messed up by making them too high, especially for missiles...

I really put my hopes on the Addon for that, where the formula is changed completely.

Me too, this should break the rock-cisor-paper fleets that win battles from the design screen rather than by the tactical choice made by the player. Also i hope they revamp the blockade mechanics, shutting down research and ressource completely is far too crippling and seem to be the main reason why it's still easy to beat the AI on higher difficulties.

Foraven wrote:
If you really want a challenge, you should refrain from doing crash colonization early game. I can't make the AI any better at early colonization, especially if you pick traits that make colony ships cheaper (Sophons). I guess i should increase colony ship cost...

I'm hoping they'll nerf the Sophon colony ships a bit, that would be fairer... will try another faction for my next game...

Never happened to me. Do you use any other mods besides mine?

no, none

Did not mess with system balance or galaxy generation yet. Coincidence most likely.

Probably, although I've never seen that exception before...

The_Quasar wrote:
I'm hoping they'll nerf the Sophon colony ships a bit, that would be fairer... will try another faction for my next game...

Been trying to fix that today, but so far no luck making sophon's colony module the same cost as other empires without removing the support module bonus. Have tried many things but can't tweak the cost of a module on an idividual basis. Could have made a special sophon colony module if the colonizer effect wasn't hard coded...

Probably, although I've never seen that exception before...

Very hard to fix if i never experience it myself.

So, any comments about the Heroes rebalance? Did i get it right or some hero's class still get the short stick?

I'm curently rebalancing weapon damage and making sure no weapon type gets way more powerful than the others by the end game (*cough* kinetics *cough*). I also increased kinetic defense by 50%, should make it easier to defend against as well (my buff to kinetics was too much it seems). Right now i'm trying to define the relative power between each types and make it stick till the end game. Weapons should be more equals in the next version.



Edit: Checking damage alone, i found out i really messed up the balance between classes and weapon tiers. I feel ashamed i had screwed it this much when i messed with weapon damage. However, this time around i made sure the damage progression follow a definite rule (1.5 times the previous tier), this way weapons will keep their relative power to the end game.

@Ail: No, i think 'counter' defenses are a good idea. Not that % wouldn't, in fact: Combined with Armor, which does the "Flat damage" thing...

Are we sure about the crit modifier being a multiplication, and not an addition? The table is done with addition. That's the table if the crit modifier is multiplicative:

[code]Damage table:WEIGHT5

LongRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

14 - -

20 - 93

36 45 127

49 62 179

66 84 339

96 123 456

132 173 598

204 232 842

277 312 1180



MediumRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

28 - -

42 - 70

74 102 96

99 140 135

133 189 256

195 276 344

267 389 451

413 523 636

562 702 891



ShortRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

65 - -

95 - 50

169 95 69

226 131 97

305 176 184

444 258 248

610 363 325

941 489 458

1281 655 642[/code]

A little more sense is in.

I wish we had the damage mechanics explained properly, though.

Question of the day: How does armor work?

Aureon wrote:
@Ail: No, i think 'counter' defenses are a good idea. Not that % wouldn't, in fact: Combined with Armor, which does the "Flat damage" thing...

Well, i will have work for you there, just finished rebalancing weapons and defense and i want to know how it does look with your numbers. I'm confident this time it should be close to perfect, but i may have forgot something along the way...



Here the files: RebalancedWeaponDefense.zip

I wish we had the damage mechanics explained properly, though.

From what i know, once defense are bypassed, each weapon hits are applied to armor, some of them doing way more damage due to criticals. There doesn't seem to be reduction in damage from using armor plates.

Question of the day: How does armor work?

They just add HP to the hulls as far as i can tell. Plating can add flat HP or a % of base hull HP.

Since i'm in the rebalance, i will also look at strategic ressources. My plan currently is to split weapons/defense into 2 class; one that is the current weapon sets but requiring ressources. The second on other hand will have the stats of the previous tier, but won't require ressources. That way it will be crippling to be out of ressource, but won't prevent us from building warships; they will just be weaker.

New version is going well. While toying with the idea of having two sets of weapons (budget and Elite variant), i stumbled on a way of balancing the "Rich get Richer" aspect of the game. Basically, i figured that players lagging behind in the galactic power struggle would opt for the budget variants, while the leader would always go for the best regardless of the cost. So the Idea i came upon was to keep the standard weapons/modules as the budget ones (removed all ressources requirments for them) and made a better variant (increased critical chance, less space taken for example) using ressources but at a much higher build cost (for now, 2x but i may rise it). That way rich players have the best toys, but may not get a huge lead on other players because their high tech widgets depend on availiability of ressource and greatly increase ships cost, thus use a lot more of their edge in FIDS to upkeep. I'm currently looking at ways to apply this to improvements...



I think i found a great way to rebalance the game as a whole here .

I have been an observer to these forums for a while and play the game as and when I can. I would like to say that the work you have done and continue to put into this, has really made this a very enjoyable game. So thank you from me and probably others - who like me - download it and never really thank the people who spend hours of their own time making it more enjoyable for the community.

handers wrote:
I have been an observer to these forums for a while and play the game as and when I can. I would like to say that the work you have done and continue to put into this, has really made this a very enjoyable game. So thank you from me and probably others - who like me - download it and never really thank the people who spend hours of their own time making it more enjoyable for the community.

Greatly appreciated . It may not seem much but we modders often need those post to keep on going; we like to know when our work is appreciated and not just checked and forgotten. I hope you (and the other lurkers) will continue to like this mod .

Just to play devils advocate - why would I want to make extra $$ weapons if I can make normal weapons at half the price? Two ships with slightly lower weapons >>> one ship with slightly superior weapons unless there is a disportionate difference and then it would probably behoove one to simple advance to the next tier as quickly as possible. Good idea but how do you encourage players to utilize the more expensive weapons as anything more than a shiney toy?



The only way I would invest in elite weapons is if I can gain a significant advantage for the investment and typically that means an extended window of time more so than extra dmg. Small bonus over a large number of turns > big dmg over a few turns.

iblise wrote:
Just to play devils advocate - why would I want to make extra $$ weapons if I can make normal weapons at half the price? Two ships with slightly lower weapons >>> one ship with slightly superior weapons unless there is a disportionate difference and then it would probably behoove one to simple advance to the next tier as quickly as possible. Good idea but how do you encourage players to utilize the more expensive weapons as anything more than a shiney toy?

The way i currently set it up, Elite weapons, while twice as expensive and requiring ressources (you get the ressource discount though), provide 3 times the critical hits chance, +10% accuracy and take 10% less space (the budget versions never provide those bonuses regardless of tier). I think being able to cram more guns in your designs is a big bonus, and the x3 critical chance may mean a lot more damage. Yeah, if you want to produce faster you may opt for the cheaper ones (for cheaper retrofit and maintenance as well), but elite loaded ships will still be more powerful. I think it will open many strategies and make strategic ressource more important.

The only way I would invest in elite weapons is if I can gain a significant advantage for the investment and typically that means an extended window of time more so than extra dmg. Small bonus over a large number of turns > big dmg over a few turns.

I'm sure my new feature will open a large debate about what is the most efficient in the long run . I'm confident this feature will bring a lot of strategies that never existed before.

So, double the industry, which means 140% of normal with a monopoly.

For 10% accuracy, ~15% of damage in the form of crit, and -10% weight.

Mhh, mmh. It's a fair tradeoff, proven you've got the resource at monopoly.



Pass me the xml of the weapons when you're done, i'll get you the tables. If you know a little Python, i can directly give you the extracting script, i guess.

Aureon wrote:
So, double the industry, which means 140% of normal with a monopoly.

For 10% accuracy, ~15% of damage in the form of crit, and -10% weight.

Mhh, mmh. It's a fair tradeoff, proven you've got the resource at monopoly.

We will have to see how it turns out during combat. It's not just weapons that will have elite variant (almost done with defense currently).

Pass me the xml of the weapons when you're done, i'll get you the tables. If you know a little Python, i can directly give you the extracting script, i guess.

By your command! WeaponModule117.zip



I don't know python unfortunately. Something i really should learn though.

BattleDescriptor.xml is unvaried?

With old battleDescriptor: (Accuracy is flat out treated as +10% damage)

Elite-version: [code]Damage table:WEIGHT5

LongRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

18 - -

28 - 159

40 69 226

56 82 289

81 114 459

113 160 660

176 234 945

248 330 1306

351 471 1885



MediumRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

38 - -

58 - 120

81 155 171

113 186 218

164 257 347

230 361 499

356 527 714

502 743 986

712 1060 1424



ShortRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

87 - -

133 - 86

185 145 123

258 174 157

374 240 250

525 337 359

812 492 514

1144 694 711

1623 990 1026

[/code]

Not elite:

[code]Damage table:WEIGHT5

LongRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

14 - -

21 - 103

30 47 147

41 57 208

60 79 298

85 111 428

131 162 613

185 228 847

262 326 1223



MediumRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

28 - -

43 - 78

60 107 111

84 129 157

122 178 225

172 250 323

266 365 463

375 514 640

532 734 924



ShortRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

65 - -

99 - 56

138 100 80

193 120 113

279 166 162

392 233 233

606 340 334

854 480 461

1212 685 666

[/code]

Now, tables at same-industry (assuming no monopolies, keep that in mind)

Elite

[code]Damage table:COST

LongRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

28 - -

22 - 107

19 24 96

19 21 96

20 22 103

22 24 116

27 29 135

31 33 159

38 41 190



MediumRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

57 - -

46 - 81

40 55 73

39 47 72

42 49 78

46 55 88

55 65 102

63 76 120

77 93 143



ShortRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

131 - -

105 - 58

91 52 52

89 44 52

96 46 56

105 51 63

126 61 74

145 71 86

176 87 103 [/code]

[code]

Damage table:COST

LongRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

47 - -

37 - 155

33 38 139

32 32 138

34 33 149

37 37 168

45 45 196

52 52 230

63 61 274



MediumRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

95 - -

76 - 117

66 86 105

65 73 104

70 76 112

76 84 127

92 101 148

106 117 174

128 139 207



ShortRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

217 - -

174 - 84

152 80 76

148 68 75

159 71 81

175 79 91

210 94 106

241 109 125

292 129 149 [/code]



All in all, roughly a 50% damage bonus, but 50% less damage efficiency.

With monopoly:

[code]Damage table:COST ELITE_VERSION MONOPOLY_BONUS

LongRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

19 - -

15 - 75

13 17 67

13 14 67

14 15 72

16 17 81

19 20 95

22 23 111

26 29 133

ShortRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

91 - -

73 - 41

64 36 36

62 31 36

67 32 39

73 36 44

88 43 51

101 49 60

123 61 72

MediumRangePhase:

Kin Las Mis

40 - -

32 - 56

28 39 51

27 33 50

29 34 54

32 38 61

39 46 71

44 53 84

54 65 100 [/code]

Which could be a tad too good. There'd be no reason to use the budget versions with a monopoly. Cost to 220% should suffice, or alternatively, turning a bit down the bonuses.

PS: The tables should be pastable onto spreadsheets just fine.



e: I should really redo the damage calculation functions to enable defenses. No point doing that until we know how does really armor/flak work, though.

Aureon wrote:
All in all, roughly a 50% damage bonus, but 50% less damage efficiency.

Sound about right. That might give a reason to have elite designs and non elite ones.

Which could be a tad too good. There'd be no reason to use the budget versions with a monopoly. Cost to 220% should suffice, or alternatively, turning a bit down the bonuses.

I expected the cost to need some balancing, x2 seemed a minimum but x3 a bit too much; might settle for x2.5. But i wonder how easy it will be to keep a monopoly on all required ressources, or keep all the required ressources in stock (especially for late game ones). I am considering capping the requirements to 2 ressources, requiring 4-5 different ressources may make using late game Elite variant a bit too hard to keep active, especially if some ressources happen to be scarce galaxy wide or there is a lot of back and forth with system capture.

PS: The tables should be pastable onto spreadsheets just fine.

Once i'm done tweaking and making sure no errors are left, sure. The new version should be done today assuming no unforseen problems (or real life intrusion ).

e: I should really redo the damage calculation functions to enable defenses. No point doing that until we know how does really armor/flak work, though.

Defenses are almost done. I did put a lot of efforts this time around to keep the defense stats consistent, don't want another issue like the kinetics making all other weapons obsolete. I also have to keep in mind the AI won't see the subtility of Elite vs Budget and will go for Elite by default so long as the ressources are available (knowing our players though, the AI may end up using Budget a lot due to blockades though). Anyway, i'm sure we will have fun experimenting with that .