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Meedoc

Meedoc

5 years ago Apr 03,2020, 14:04:40 PM

Humankind Feature Focus 04: Shaping Your Legacy

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Hello everybody,




Since we announced Humankind, we have seen a lot of questions and speculation on two core systems of the game: Fame and Cultures. It’s finally time for us to dive deeper into how you will leave your mark on history and shape the legacy of your civilization, so check out the video and blogpost below:





Humankind is all about your journey through history, not its conclusion, and this is reflected in the games unified victory condition known as Fame. Every discovery you make, every wonder you built, and many other great deeds will grant you Fame, tracking the mark your civilization left on history. With all your achievements taken into account, Humankind offers you many paths to a single goal: To shape a legacy that lasts through the ages! After all, we remember great builders and great conquerors alike.

This also gives you a lot of flexibility to adapt your strategy to your environment and changing circumstances as the game advances. You can shift from being a civilization focused on science and trade to defending against an aggressor with both contributing equally to your Fame. As all of your great achievements add to your Fame regardless of Era, your journey through history is as important as the goal you eventually reach.



While many great discoveries and projects contribute to your Fame, the main source of Fame are the Era Stars.

In each era, you can earn Era Stars in seven categories related to your economic development, military, and expansion. You may earn up to three stars in each category by reaching increasingly difficult goals scaling with how well you were doing in that category in previous eras. Once you have earned 7 Era Stars, you are ready to transition to a different Culture or transcend with your current Culture. You do not have to make this decision immediately, but as any Culture can be present only once in game, delaying for too long may limit your choices.


 

Are you a builder...       ... or a conqueror?



We want each Culture to feel appropriate to their era, to maintain immersion and a sense of authenticity, which is why when you enter a new Era, you are given a choice of ten Cultures that were prominent during this period of history.

We worked closely with historians to ensure that we present a proper picture of these cultures, both in their overall presentation and in the details. While this is perhaps most visible in the artwork and the 3D models used in game, we also want the unique character of each culture to be reflected in gameplay, so each Culture is defined in gameplay by four features:


  • A Gameplay Orientation, like Agrarian, Aesthete, or Militarist, giving you access to a powerful ability related to this Orientation, as well as increased Fame gains for the related Era Star.
  • An Emblematic Quarter, which offers unique bonuses or effects that will remain active in the cities that built them as the game advances through the Eras.
  • An Emblematic Unit with a unique ability that sets them apart from their common counterpart and expands your options in tactical combat.
  • A Legacy Trait granting a unique bonus that you will keep throughout the rest of the game, allowing you to combine up to six different Legacy Traits by the end of the game.



Of course, we do not want to force you to abandon a Culture you are particularly enjoying, so you also have the option to transcend with your current culture. This means forgoing a new Legacy Trait, Emblematic Quarter, and Emblematic Unit, in exchange for gaining additional Fame for the rest of the game.



Questions? Comments? Let us know below!

We hope you enjoyed this closer look at Fame and Cultures in Humankind!


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5 years ago
Apr 20, 2020, 9:05:45 AM

Hello Sublustris, 


Good question! We are indeed trying to implement a data-driven approach to our balancing using information about players' economies and how they evolve over the duration of a game.  It's still a work in progress (and a departure to our previous habits) but we believe that it should make it  easier to keep the game balanced in the long run.  Of course, we will continue to listen to players' feedbacks, as each will help us better place the other in context.  Ideally, this should help us find and address balance issues whose symptoms have been reported by the community but whose real cause might be more tricky to find. 


Cheers

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5 years ago
Apr 9, 2020, 11:12:05 PM

Cant get enough of that music! Will any of it be released before the game?

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5 years ago
Apr 10, 2020, 9:09:25 AM
Fudgeyman wrote:

Cant get enough of that music! Will any of it be released before the game?

I can't say for an early release of the soundtrack but the next feature focus will be about it, so you can expect some more !

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Apr 10, 2020, 11:04:46 AM
DrunkenChoko wrote:
Fudgeyman wrote:

Cant get enough of that music! Will any of it be released before the game?

I can't say for an early release of the soundtrack but the next feature focus will be about it, so you can expect some more !

Really? Good! 


But will it be all about music or sound all together? I'd like to now more about voices of leaders in case there are any. In ES2 interation with leaders of other nations was the best part of diplomacy for me.

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5 years ago
Apr 13, 2020, 2:22:01 AM

Finally, we are moving away from CIV's. And it's very good! 

Leave the players the single final goal is a very right decision. Fame (victory points) with mechanichs of Era Stars will provide the game with clear medium goal loops, which are very lacking in many modern 4x strategies. I personally get bored of playing in the midgame because of this. Now you have clear tasks before your eyes - grow 8 pop, capture territory, win the battle, you won’t get bored. And this is not sidequests or something, these are tasks that bring you to victory in the game!

You might think that various end goals provide many strategies. Just remember any multiplayer game that almost always ends through conquest. 

I hope Era Stars and different Cultures with their traits allow to play many strategies to achieve single goal.


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5 years ago
Apr 14, 2020, 2:33:54 AM

About the money and influence rewards, are those like the economic victory in the Endless games where you don't have to store that much gold, only produce that much?

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5 years ago
Apr 14, 2020, 7:46:42 PM

I would like to emphasize on soundtrack. CIV5's soundtrack was soo damn good. The immersion it gave was superb for me. I believe in this type of games soundtrack can really make a huge difference. Please focus on that. Different types of civs can get different types of music for example, based on their cultures.

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5 years ago
Apr 15, 2020, 11:05:03 AM

Well, how does that work? You get eliminated and then passively watch the rest of the game, hoping to "win"?

 

Your comment gave me an interesting idea actually. What if in case of a loss you don't  just get eliminated, but you instead get assimilated. You become a part of other player's empire and your culture integrates into his. You can still play and get control of some part of his empire (like an atonomous state or smth). And there comes an interesting choice - continue playing as a part of a greater empire, helping it with conquest and development and win as a part of it; or try to break free and fight for independance? But the last case would be kind of a gamble and would put you at risk of being gone for good.

 

I think eliminating someone should be super difficult or even practically impossible. If you can eliminate anyone who has more Fame than you, Fame Victory will quickly lose its meaning.

Would it be meaningless? You could have lots of fame from culture, wonders, maybe exploration, but have neglected your military. Or just got outsmarted on the battlefield. I'm sure there are plentiful examples where more "famous" cultures got conquered by seeming underdogs. Look at potentially Greece and Persia, European colonial powers and India or China between 1800 and 1950.

I don’t want to reveal everything as I believe that discovery is also part of the experience. But overall, we indeed want to make elimination difficult. And if it occurs, we’re looking into ending the game earlier. The how has not been decided yet.


A few comments @Devs

First, I presume that Era stars won't be the only source of fame. Wonders, battles, maybe technologies or even buildings, cities will all contribute fame. If so, I think the game needs good in-game documentation what gives fame and how much. Much as I enjoyed Amplitude's previous games, the lack of an in-game encyclopedia would be quite problematic for this aspect.

 

I would love the game to be inspired by Civ VI's era score screen. Something to both help you keep track of fame, but also look back on your achievements in an immersive way. Similarly, maybe the fame stars could be thematically packaged. Like Civilization's regular pop-ups of historians completing works and listing players by certain criteria. Something flavourful :)

 

On that, are era scores awarded only if you are the first to achieve the deed or is it just a matter of achieving, whenever it happens? Given that there are only 21 stars per era and potentially 10 players, I guess it must just a matter of achieving. But maybe the bonus is bigger if you get there first (or second, at least)? Or could/should be?

Era Star is not the only source of Fame indeed. There are competitive Deeds and other rare actions that will bring Fame too. However, we don’t want every single battle to contribute to Fame directly. They will through the Era Stars, but we don’t want to encourage the “farming” of Fame.


Deeds are indeed competitive and only one players can achieve it while Era Stars are personal achievements and thus, you can always achieve the 21 of a given Era. However, the gains depends on your efficiency (the faster the higher). Moreover, the challenges are adapted to you when you enter the Era.


Lastly, yes, I would dig an alternate mode where the game can conclude earlier under certain conditions. I think Field of Glory Empires and Oriental Empires did something potentially interesting by having a certain score difference to other players or the remaining ones. So, maybe, say, 3x as much fame as your next opponent plus an absolute threshold of fame can allow you to declare victory. Or initiate some challenge to other players to bring you down before a timer runs out. *Something* to avoid having to play out a game that is essentially over by age 4. Though maybe you have other tricks up your sleeve to avoid that perennial 4X pitfall.

 

Btw, Meedoc said about "player-triggered conditions" of win, so maybe there are a chance than you can end the game not by fame, but simply be defeating everyone else?

We’re looking into alternative ending conditions but also we want to make sure that it’s meaningful to keep playing until the end ?

And Ending conditions doesn’t mean “winning conditions”?


Finally, a completely separate though: what are the effects of entering a new era, other than picking a new culture? Do certain mechanics or features become unlocked? I would assume most player abilities are linked to technologies, rather than eras and you can already have quite advanced tech while still being technically in an early era, right? Just wondering ...

Entering an Era gives you access to the related technologies, and some features are indeed bound to specific technologies ? 


About the money and influence rewards, are those like the economic victory in the Endless games where you don't have to store that much gold, only produce that much?

Yes, we’re looking at production as we don’t want you to feel stuck because you must save X money before using it.


Cheers,

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5 years ago
Apr 17, 2020, 4:24:22 PM

I have a question about game balancing. Did devs consider to move from player feedback-driven approach to data-driven approach? I mean, you could make stat report with different faction performance metricks, technologies researched and units used at the end of the game, then send to your servers for analysis. I believe this is already the case the some degree with ES2 hall of fame, but I'm not aware of you using that info in actual game balancing.

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5 years ago
Apr 7, 2020, 8:10:03 AM
PARAdoxiBLE wrote:
Shadowhal wrote:
PARAdoxiBLE wrote:

I think eliminating someone should be super difficult or even practically impossible. If you can eliminate anyone who has more Fame than you, Fame Victory will quickly lose its meaning.

Would it be meaningless? You could have lots of fame from culture, wonders, maybe exploration, but have neglected your military. Or just got outsmarted on the battlefield. I'm sure there are plentiful examples where more "famous" cultures got conquered by seeming underdogs. Look at potentially Greece and Persia, European colonial powers and India or China between 1800 and 1950.

See, Fame victory was introduced in name of 'the journey rather than the ending'. It is there to emphasize every era you go through. But if one with the biggest stick can just eliminate anyone who did a better job in previous eras and become the front-runner without collecting enough fame, there is very small reason to care about 'the journey rather than the result'.

I see where you are coming from. On the one hand, neglecting the military should be a risk. Even if you emphasise different aspects of your empire, you'll always want to maintain a strong defence force. On the other hand, your point stands that significant successes from the past shouldn't be easily wiped out through conquest.


The game will need some disincentive towards wars of total conquest (as opposed to individual cities or territories) and probably also towards infinite city sprawl. We haven't seen anything in that regard so far. The dev blog mentioned that further stars in particular categories become increasingly difficult to obtain, so there is an element of decreasing return to investment here. But that doesn't apply if you are just flat out eliminating opponents left and right, bc then you don't need to care about fame anymore.


In previous games, Amplitude had happiness mechanics and typically penalties for having many cities as well as temporary happiness penalties after conquest. They provided some disincentive, but wouldn't be strong enough to prevent total conquest in my view. I would prefer internal stability and revolution mechanics. If game design is that the emblematic elements of conquered cities are kept, then that's one avenue for introduce more long-lasting frictions within empires. Likewise, ES2 had you keep different types of pops upon conquest. That can also be a basis for further friction.



Finally, a completely separate though: what are the effects of entering a new era, other than picking a new culture? Do certain mechanics or features become unlocked? I would assume most player abilities are linked to technologies, rather than eras and you can already have quite advanced tech while still being technically in an early era, right? Just wondering ...

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5 years ago
Apr 22, 2020, 1:17:43 PM

Are there any possibilities of adding small settelments in the ecosystem of the game? I don't mean barabaric tribes or small nations (it's great too, btw) but towns and villages inside your regions. I missed that option in Endless Legends sooo much.

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5 years ago
Apr 22, 2020, 2:57:57 PM

As I mentioned in a different thread: On the screenshots we usually create very dense cities to fit everything we want to show within the screenshot, but there are options to spread your Quarters out a lot more instead of clustering them around a single center.

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5 years ago
Apr 28, 2020, 12:20:59 PM
Meedoc wrote:

...

Thanks for getting back to me.


I'll be curious what you have or come up with regarding early and alternative "ending" conditions. I wonder if there could be a case of "no one wins". 


Good to know that earning Fame will take some planning, conscious effort and discrete events, rather than like a generic "score" into which absolutely everything goes. I wasn't aware of deeds, but it makes sense, given that these were in both EL and ES2. They worked quite well there, I think, though maybe they could be randomised to create more variety?


One follow-up maybe: I suppose ALL fame star areas are re-set once you enter a new era, not just the ones you happened to earn, right? So, it's not necessarily like the science stars get easier because you focused on expansion in the last two eras? It could lead too much to a balanced, reversion-to-the-mean playstyle otherwise.

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5 years ago
Apr 28, 2020, 12:27:00 PM

All of the era starts are reset to 0 of 3 when you enter a new era, and the requirements are scaled up. How much they scale up depends on how well you did, though. So if you advanced by aggressive expansion, building districts, and defeating enemies, your growth, money, culture, and science era starts will still get a little more difficult, but not as much as the expansion, building, and battle stars.

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5 years ago
Apr 30, 2020, 9:40:21 PM
The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

All of the era starts are reset to 0 of 3 when you enter a new era, and the requirements are scaled up. How much they scale up depends on how well you did, though. So if you advanced by aggressive expansion, building districts, and defeating enemies, your growth, money, culture, and science era starts will still get a little more difficult, but not as much as the expansion, building, and battle stars.

Thanks for clarifying. I thought the achievement levels were absolute for each era and the same for all players. I guess diminishing returns to any particular game style and an incentive to look at the most previously neglected aspects. I look forward to seeing it in practice.

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5 years ago
May 4, 2020, 8:47:48 AM

Maybe I haven't seen it, but... about arts in civilizations like music, painting, writing, sculpture, there will be any mechanic to earn fame by developing any of that? I mean, same as you get fame by building the pyramids, thre will be a way to write "El quijote", paint Kanagawa's big wave, having a Mozart in your Civilization or the Miquelangelo's David?

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5 years ago
Apr 5, 2020, 7:12:20 AM

Wow, this is really good!

 It is good that the Victory will be awarded by Fame, as I understand it-an extended version of the victory by points. That makes more sense to me.

 About the choice of cultures in each era - this is also good, but it is very important to properly balance. In my opinion, the path of one culture is more difficult, but if the player was able to master it, then let him have an advantage over those who followed the path of cultural globalization. 

But in General, it looks cool. 

Well good luck.

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5 years ago
Apr 3, 2020, 3:30:08 PM

Does the Era Medal for owning territories is being given only for previously uninhabited territories? Or both for them and captured lands?

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5 years ago
Apr 3, 2020, 4:08:36 PM

Interesting, it seems Assyrian was supposed to be the first to be announced in Classical Era, but instaed was skipped.


Babylon's Emblematic Quater's ability scales with the neibouring farms, and farms are not built but just one ring outside city tiles. This means the Astronomy House is powerful in the early game where there are a lot of farms nearby, whereas as games goes on, the neibouring farms are developed as quaters, Astronomy House ceases to be powerful.


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5 years ago
Apr 3, 2020, 4:14:23 PM

The trade-off in deciding when to advance to the next era is also interesting, if transit immediately, you lose the chance to earn more stars (3×7=21 in total), but the later you transit, the less available cultures there will be.

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5 years ago
Apr 3, 2020, 4:26:58 PM
SunshineWings wrote:

Interesting, it seems Assyrian was supposed to be the first to be announced in Classical Era, but instaed was skipped.


Babylon's Emblematic Quater's ability scales with the neibouring farms, and farms are not built but just one ring outside city tiles. This means the Astronomy House is powerful in the early game where there are a lot of farms nearby, whereas as games goes on, the neibouring farms are developed as quaters, Astronomy House ceases to be powerful.


1) Assyrians is 1st era culture. You should be able to spot a line of text saying 'CULTURAL TRANSCENDENCE'.

2) Farmers Quarter is one of the quarters revealed previously (source)

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5 years ago
Apr 3, 2020, 5:45:34 PM
PARAdoxiBLE wrote:
SunshineWings wrote:

Interesting, it seems Assyrian was supposed to be the first to be announced in Classical Era, but instaed was skipped.


Babylon's Emblematic Quater's ability scales with the neibouring farms, and farms are not built but just one ring outside city tiles. This means the Astronomy House is powerful in the early game where there are a lot of farms nearby, whereas as games goes on, the neibouring farms are developed as quaters, Astronomy House ceases to be powerful.


1) Assyrians is 1st era culture. You should be able to spot a line of text saying 'CULTURAL TRANSCENDENCE'.

2) Farmers Quarter is one of the quarters revealed previously (source)

My bad about the Assyrians.


As of frams, yes, the dev mentioned in your sourse the frams are working tiles. But did he say how it's built? No. If you watch the videos closely, it's obvious the farms show up automatically around a quater when they are built.

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5 years ago
Apr 3, 2020, 9:54:40 PM

Very nice to see that each Culture has a unique passive essentially.


Now that we know what each Culture will contain, when will we know what the previously revealled Culture legeacy traits are and why not include these traits on new reveals going forward?

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5 years ago
Apr 4, 2020, 9:23:07 PM

So, basically, we are like left with only one type of victory which is score victory which I personally dislike in all Endless games. But I'm fine till it's fun.


But, what's important, how and when does the game names winner? Is it someone with better score after X turns or someone who is first to achieve X points first?

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5 years ago
Apr 5, 2020, 7:46:52 AM

Hey Everybody. I am new to this site. I am looking forward to that game very much. The artwork of your game looks so nice and the possibilty to change the cultures through the game is a very nice difference to civilization. 


My question is:

When you are getting points for different kinds of achievements for example winning a war against an opponent.

Is it also possible to lose those points? Cause of the fact that you lose a war for example? 

Or because you lose territory because an opponent is conquering an outpost?

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 8:18:20 AM

Hi! Thanks for your lovely comments and questions. One of the best possible way to start a week  


Shukfir wrote:

Does the Era Medal for owning territories is being given only for previously uninhabited territories? Or both for them and captured lands?

We're only counting the actual number of owned territories. It gives you flexibility on how you aquire them.


AceAxos wrote:

Very nice to see that each Culture has a unique passive essentially.


Now that we know what each Culture will contain, when will we know what the previously revealled Culture legeacy traits are and why not include these traits on new reveals going forward?

We didn't communicate on the Legacy Trait, is also because we're still refining them a lot and their names are not final yet. They are one of the most difficult aspect of the balancing as we have to consider up to 1 000 000 combinations. 


We know the domain of application for each, but we don't want to create expectations and communicate on a content that will certainly change.


Zabolotskiy wrote:

So, basically, we are like left with only one type of victory which is score victory which I personally dislike in all Endless games. But I'm fine till it's fun.


But, what's important, how and when does the game names winner? Is it someone with better score after X turns or someone who is first to achieve X points first?

The idea is to indeed have only one criteria but fed by the actions you would have taken for reaching the usual victory conditions. It brings more flexibility in your playstyle.

For now we have a set limit of turns. We're also looking at player-triggered conditions to complete that.


El-Mo wrote:

Hey Everybody. I am new to this site. I am looking forward to that game very much. The artwork of your game looks so nice and the possibilty to change the cultures through the game is a very nice difference to civilization. 


My question is:

When you are getting points for different kinds of achievements for example winning a war against an opponent.

Is it also possible to lose those points? Cause of the fact that you lose a war for example? 

Or because you lose territory because an opponent is conquering an outpost?

We don't want Fame to be lost. What is acquired is forever. Thus, you can outperform at the beginning of the game and then be dominated for the second half and still win. 

The fall of Rome didn't change the prowess of Pompei or Cesar.


Don't hesitate if you have any other questions on this topic :) 


Cheers,

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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 1:19:12 PM

Well, how does that work? You get eliminated and then passively watch the rest of the game, hoping to "win"?

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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 1:26:22 PM
Sublustris wrote:

Well, how does that work? You get eliminated and then passively watch the rest of the game, hoping to "win"?

Your comment gave me an interesting idea actually. What if in case of a loss you don't  just get eliminated, but you instead get assimilated. You become a part of other player's empire and your culture integrates into his. You can still play and get control of some part of his empire (like an atonomous state or smth). And there comes an interesting choice - continue playing as a part of a greater empire, helping it with conquest and development and win as a part of it; or try to break free and fight for independance? But the last case would be kind of a gamble and would put you at risk of being gone for good.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 1:26:38 PM
Sublustris wrote:

Well, how does that work? You get eliminated and then passively watch the rest of the game, hoping to "win"?

I think eliminating someone should be super difficult or even practically impossible. If you can eliminate anyone who has more Fame than you, Fame Victory will quickly lose its meaning.

Updated 5 years ago.
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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 9:22:27 PM
PARAdoxiBLE wrote:
Sublustris wrote:

Well, how does that work? You get eliminated and then passively watch the rest of the game, hoping to "win"?

I think eliminating someone should be super difficult or even practically impossible. If you can eliminate anyone who has more Fame than you, Fame Victory will quickly lose its meaning.

Would it be meaningless? You could have lots of fame from culture, wonders, maybe exploration, but have neglected your military. Or just got outsmarted on the battlefield. I'm sure there are plentiful examples where more "famous" cultures got conquered by seeming underdogs. Look at potentially Greece and Persia, European colonial powers and India or China between 1800 and 1950.


A few comments @Devs

First, I presume that Era stars won't be the only source of fame. Wonders, battles, maybe technologies or even buildings, cities will all contribute fame. If so, I think the game needs good in-game documentation what gives fame and how much. Much as I enjoyed Amplitude's previous games, the lack of an in-game encyclopedia would be quite problematic for this aspect.


I would love the game to be inspired by Civ VI's era score screen. Something to both help you keep track of fame, but also look back on your achievements in an immersive way. Similarly, maybe the fame stars could be thematically packaged. Like Civilization's regular pop-ups of historians completing works and listing players by certain criteria. Something flavourful :)


On that, are era scores awarded only if you are the first to achieve the deed or is it just a matter of achieving, whenever it happens? Given that there are only 21 stars per era and potentially 10 players, I guess it must just a matter of achieving. But maybe the bonus is bigger if you get there first (or second, at least)? Or could/should be?


Lastly, yes, I would dig an alternate mode where the game can conclude earlier under certain conditions. I think Field of Glory Empires and Oriental Empires did something potentially interesting by having a certain score difference to other players or the remaining ones. So, maybe, say, 3x as much fame as your next opponent plus an absolute threshold of fame can allow you to declare victory. Or initiate some challenge to other players to bring you down before a timer runs out. *Something* to avoid having to play out a game that is essentially over by age 4. Though maybe you have other tricks up your sleeve to avoid that perennial 4X pitfall.

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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 9:31:39 PM
PARAdoxiBLE wrote:
Sublustris wrote:

Well, how does that work? You get eliminated and then passively watch the rest of the game, hoping to "win"?

I think eliminating someone should be super difficult or even practically impossible. If you can eliminate anyone who has more Fame than you, Fame Victory will quickly lose its meaning.

Maybe you wiil obtain more point with conquering someone's terretory or with winning battles. And yes, as we know, more fame might mean not only more land, but more army, more technologys and stuff. So anyone with more fame then you is probably stronger than you. 


Btw, Meedoc said about "player-triggered conditions" of win, so maybe there are a chance than you can end the game not by fame, but simply be defeating everyone else?

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5 years ago
Apr 6, 2020, 11:41:00 PM
Shadowhal wrote:
PARAdoxiBLE wrote:

I think eliminating someone should be super difficult or even practically impossible. If you can eliminate anyone who has more Fame than you, Fame Victory will quickly lose its meaning.

Would it be meaningless? You could have lots of fame from culture, wonders, maybe exploration, but have neglected your military. Or just got outsmarted on the battlefield. I'm sure there are plentiful examples where more "famous" cultures got conquered by seeming underdogs. Look at potentially Greece and Persia, European colonial powers and India or China between 1800 and 1950.

See, Fame victory was introduced in name of 'the journey rather than the ending'. It is there to emphasize every era you go through. But if one with the biggest stick can just eliminate anyone who did a better job in previous eras and become the front-runner without collecting enough fame, there is very small reason to care about 'the journey rather than the result'.

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