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3 years ago Jun 03,2021, 15:59:40 PM

Victor OpenDev Player Feedback

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About a month ago, we hosted the Victor OpenDev to give you all a glimpse of what we’ve been working on since the Lucy OpenDev last year, and to get your feedback on the direction we are taking. Many of the Victor OpenDev players confirmed that they think we are on the right track, but as always we also received a ton of constructive feedback.


Before we dive into the details of the feedback, and some of our plans to address it, we want to thank you again for your continued support of the OpenDev program. The amount and quality of feedback we receive continue to impress us, as do the participation and excitement by both players and content creators.




Without further ado, let’s take a look at some of the most common feedback we received.

  • Eras progress too quickly and Era Stars are too easy to earn.
  • Research, on the other hand, was much slower than era progression, causing a mismatch between progression.
  • Maintaining high stability in cities was too easy.
  • All basic resource yields still grew too quickly.
  • Food in particular was easy to manage, diminishing the value of farmers quarters.
  • Money was too easy to earn through various means, including vassals.
  • Buyouts with both money and Forced Labor (sacrificing population) were too cheap and powerful.
  • Influence was difficult to earn in the early game when it was crucial for expansion, but too easy to earn later when there was little left to spend it on.
  • The War Resolution screen was difficult to understand and use.
  • War Support changed too quickly even from small engagements.
  • Vassalization was too easy and provided too much money.
  • Many players disliked being unable to conquer another player's last city.
  • Some players are worried about ranged units being too powerful and giving too much “first-move advantage” to the attacker.
  • Players disliked armies being automatically included as reinforcements and losing their movement because of it.
  • Players have once again raised their concerns that the battlefield overlay is difficult to read.
  • Gaining a large amount of population in the neolithic era is still too easy.
  • There was no good reason to invest in naval units.
  • Embarked units were seen as too slow; moving across land was often faster.
  • Independent People were too easy to assimilate.
  • Religious tenets were unbalanced, with a few far too strong for proper game balance.
  • Apart from balancing, Tenets were seen as too general to inform gameplay decisions.
  • Many Civics were seen as not impacting gameplay strongly enough.
  • Civics points were too easy to earn.
  • Cultures without a Faith-producing Emblematic Quarter had no immediate counter to religious cultures.
  • Some affinities were seen as not affecting gameplay enough.
  • Among all feedback on balancing, emblematic Garrisons were seen as too weak particularly often.




As you can see, that’s a substantial list of feedback, so let us take a look at some (but not all) the solutions we are working on now:

  • We are adjusting Era Star thresholds and Research Costs to slow down era progression while bringing scientific progress more in line with it.
  • We’re looking into diminish the rapid population growth possible in the neolithic era, for example increasing growth thresholds for neolithic nomads.
  • We will re-examine naval units and naval trade to increase the incentive to engage in naval gameplay.
  • We’re continuing to tweak the economy: Food consumption has been increased, buyout costs have been increased, tribute from vassals has decreased, stability sources will be less potent, etc.
  • We’re still improving the War Resolution screen, and will add a “Zoom to territory” function to it.
  • We will re-examine War Support, vassalization and extermination of other players.
  • Armies will no longer lose their movement unless battle actually begins, so you will not lose movement on reinforcement armies if the enemy retreats.
  • We’re exploring how to make tenets and various civics more interesting and impactful.
  • We will also replace Civics points to give players somewhere to spend influence in mid to late game.
  • Ranged units will take a bigger penalty in close combat, and we have a number of other changes planned for mid and late game ranged units that should have far-reaching consequences.
  • We’re tweaking the affinities and adding new abilities to some of them.




Once again, thank you for your continued support and your constructive feedback. We will try our best to keep you informed about our progress in addressing your feedback.


Until next time!

- The Amplitude Team

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3 years ago
Jun 5, 2021, 9:33:25 PM

Those all sound like positive changes and I'm looking forward to playing on release. I'm confident the game will be good come August, but the one thing that worries me (semi confirmed from a streamer playing a more recent version) is not having a game speed slow enough for me to really take my time with each era. With the normal speed being about 300 turns, I was hoping the slowest game speed would be around 900 or 1200 turns.

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3 years ago
Jun 6, 2021, 12:18:21 AM

About vassals,

maybe it's something I missed but it felt like a dead-end for the vassal civilization. I think what is missing is some way for the vassal to break free by starting a war or forming an alliance with another strong player. That way, we would have to keep our vassals in check to make sure they don't rebel and we would still have to have some form of military presence around the vassal state to make sure they don't declare a surprise war or something of the sort. Also, maybe having a vassal should have a major negative impact on stability to act as a counterweight to the bonuses it provides?


About civics,

I agree that most civics didn't seem to have a major impact on gameplay but what annoyed me the most during the beta was that, most of the time, I got the message saying a new civic was available when I actually didn't have any civics points to spend. This meant that I just had to close the screen and tended to completely forget about it until much later.

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3 years ago
Jun 6, 2021, 5:58:44 PM

Sorry for a newbie/dumb question: I pre-purchased the game today but I am not finding anywhere where to download the Victor OpenDev? Was it for a short period of time? Thanks 

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3 years ago
Jun 6, 2021, 8:56:08 PM
tmvic a écrit :

Désolé pour une question de débutant / stupide : j'ai pré-acheté le jeu aujourd'hui mais je ne trouve nulle part où télécharger le Victor OpenDev ? Était-ce pour une courte période? Merci 

Oui, c'était du 22 avril au 3 mai.

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3 years ago
Jun 7, 2021, 8:11:17 AM
tmvic wrote:

Sorry for a newbie/dumb question: I pre-purchased the game today but I am not finding anywhere where to download the Victor OpenDev? Was it for a short period of time? Thanks 

It ended like a month ago.

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3 years ago
Jun 7, 2021, 11:48:18 AM

Thank you for developing this great game and being so open to feedback. I`m so hyped for it, played over 1500 turns this OpenDev


Please don`t forget to add a planning screen (like in Civilization) where with the help of pins and other tools you can plan ahead for the future where to place districts and how to develop cities. That is something that is truly missing, a planning tool, and is hard to just remember what you are going to do and where to place buildings to add more adjacency bonuses and stuff

Updated 2 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 7, 2021, 6:19:59 PM
Undernier wrote:

About vassals,

maybe it's something I missed but it felt like a dead-end for the vassal civilization. I think what is missing is some way for the vassal to break free by starting a war or forming an alliance with another strong player. That way, we would have to keep our vassals in check to make sure they don't rebel and we would still have to have some form of military presence around the vassal state to make sure they don't declare a surprise war or something of the sort. Also, maybe having a vassal should have a major negative impact on stability to act as a counterweight to the bonuses it provides?


About civics,

I agree that most civics didn't seem to have a major impact on gameplay but what annoyed me the most during the beta was that, most of the time, I got the message saying a new civic was available when I actually didn't have any civics points to spend. This meant that I just had to close the screen and tended to completely forget about it until much later.

This mechanism already exists, the vassal civilization can ask its liege to be granted freedom and the liege can decide to grant it or not. It funcitons like any diplomatic claim/grieance, so if the liege doesn't grant the vassal freedom the vassal may choose to go to war. The catch is that it is very difficult to trigger, in my experience in the opendev the vassals only asked to be freed once and it was because i was already at war with 3 other players. Even in this case, being a vassal (maybe its just the AI underperforming in general) had put them at such a disadvantage that even when one of them tried to rebel I vassalized it again easily.

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3 years ago
Jun 5, 2021, 11:12:28 AM

I think huns and mongols need to be more distinct from one another. Right now they have the same affinity, same emblematic unit, except mongols who comes later have a stronger version and the same emblematic district. The only real difference bwteen them is their legacy traits. I would at very least suggest change the mongols affinity to expansionist, medieval have 3 militarist but only one expansionist, so that change would make it two militarist and two expansionist.

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 9, 2021, 4:06:47 AM

Looking good.

I've been playing the tabletop game Root and it actually comes off a lot like what 4X games could be if the numbers had to be kept simple. The effects in it are always intuitive and inform playstyles, instead of a blunt "+20% whatever" stacking with a bunch of similar statboosts. I hope you can do that with at least some of the Civics, making them something we pick for a specific reason instead of "meh this looks stronger". The culture policies in EL were good in this way.

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3 years ago
Jun 9, 2021, 10:11:58 AM

I'm very impressed by the game so far. However, something has been bothering me over the past few weeks, and I've been playing through various similar games (Civ5, Endless, AOW3, CK2 etc.) to try to figure out what it is. Finally, I believe I've worked it out.


The combination of various things - fog of war, the size of provinces, the way trade works, and others, makes Humankind a comparatively lifeless game. The difference with the other games I mentioned is striking. The world in, say, Civ 5 is full of other nations going about their own business. You can see armies moving, workers building, caravans proceeding to their destinations, friendly armies and city states - at war and at peace - all bustling with life. In Endless Legend the issue is addressed by the quest events and units prowling around, particularly in the winter, looking for pearls. These force the human player out of his borders and into interactions with other units and civilizations.   In Humankind, with the exception of the Neolithic period, that entire layer is missing. With decent placement, you can see most of what's happening within your own borders, but often that isn't much. Abroad is just a blank, apart from a few tiles around your active units. It's worth watching a few playthroughs on YouTube to get the idea. You can see foreign city and resource markers, but no movement - no life. You build your state, the AI build theirs, and the two only meet in actual wars. 


In terms of immersion, this makes a huge difference. It's not so obvious during a test run because you're still busy familiarising yourself with the game mechanics and so on. But as you play and watch the game more, the issue becomes increasingly apparent. You have no sense of what the other players are doing, what their aims are, or anything else. They don't have individualized characters, and are not telling their own stories. Compare again the game of Civ5 I just finished. in it, the Great Khan rashly declared war on the Inca early on, and became a complaisant OPM and a good trading partner for the rest of the game. The Inca in turn fought a whole series of wars against Babylon to try to recover lost Machu, but plucky Nebu not only saw them off but carved up that insufferable Rameses and his heretical religion too. Persia, Morocco and Assyria were firm friends for most of the games until the latter two backstabbed the Persian while he was finishing off Egypt. The remaining player - Arabia (me) spent the game running guns to all sides, amassing colossal wealth through trade, and launching a spaceship in 1969. Not only was my game interesting but the ups and downs of my opponents were, too. That's not something I've felt with Humankind so far, and I think it's an issue that needs to be addressed.



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3 years ago
Jun 9, 2021, 10:22:47 AM

I've become a bit more hopeful in the game, seeing that a lot of my concerns are being addressed. I hope that the affinities and civics do become significantly more impactful/interesting. 
I am however a tiny bit sad that even though the battlefield overlay was mentioned as feedback ( which was a big complaint I had); it was not mentioned on the solution's section.

 I really also hope that Religion gets overhauled a bit because it feels a bit bland. I would love to see more interactions caused by religion; thing's as heresy outbursts and ways to hinder an opponent's religion, as well as more interesting bonuses if you embrace an opponent's religion, etc...

Overall im pretty happy that the issues are being worked on, I remain hopeful for what's to come and wish the team the best.

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3 years ago
Jun 10, 2021, 8:36:38 PM

I still find the absolute exclusivity of production frustrating.
Why can't a city build units and buildings at the same time?
Please look at Warhammer 40k Gladius. There when you build a barracks you gain an infantry queue.
I would streamline it into two queues, buildings and units.
That would make me play with military units, otherwise I will always sit back and trade my way to victory, as it is wasteful to divert resources to a standing army you don't need. 

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3 years ago
Jun 11, 2021, 5:13:55 PM

Very excited to see how dedicated the company is and I liked the solutions, it's hard but we'll make it.

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3 years ago
Jun 12, 2021, 10:33:27 AM

I did not have enthusiatic feelings playing the open dev!


The graphics and map are awesome ok.

But all the rest is like a copy of endless legend...

The regions, the special income tiles you have to upgrade, the goods and the combat system is all the same as endless legends.

Yes they have added religion and citycenters from Civilization 6.

Honestly Civ6 was the worst Civ so far and citycenters and religion the last things I'd copied from it.


The one thing I hoped for was the change of Civilization during the match.

I thought it would give you a boost like a golden age in Civ3 or Civ 5...

But again a great disappointment, i even didn't like the civ specific skills.


At the moment I tend to refund this game and try EPICS Old World...


Changes:

no regions, no religion please

a more player steered diplomacy menu

golden age or much bigger influence of new civ

other civ skills

Updated 3 years ago.
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3 years ago
Jun 15, 2021, 9:20:19 PM
GregoryT wrote:

My character sometimes disappears on screen and the enemy i kill off... still standing.... until I reload the game.....

I believe that would fall under general bug fixes that would naturally (hopefully) be addressed as the game is worked on anyway. I don't think this would fall under balance changes and feedback such as the things in the list of this post.

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