First off wow, this was the best kind of suprise looks incredible!

From what i've seen so far you begin in a nomadic stage before transitioning into the games first era the bronze age but as we know nomadic cultures played a huge role in this period and  far beyond with the likes of Scythians, Huns, Mongols and Great Plain tribes playing significant roles in history. Sid Mieres series has never made any attempt to show this kind of civilisation making these people settle cities like everyone else and throwing in some horsemanship buffs for flavour and I feel this is a missed opportunity.

A choice to play as a nomadic civ could really open up some interesting asymetrical gameplay opting to remain nomadic opening up different strengths and weaknesses, Amplitude already have some experience with the likes of the Roving Clans and Vodyani. You could eventually choose to become settled perhaps by conqering another empire and inhreit some of their traits. It may be out of the scope of the initial release but could make a great expansion. Theres just so much promise with a fresh historical 4X I cant wait to see what becomes of it! 

The problem is most were nomadic for about 1 Civ turn.

Ashbery76 wrote:

The problem is most were nomadic for about 1 Civ turn.

Empires rose and fell in the space of a single civ turn that doesnt make them unimportant generations of people live and die in the space of a single civ turn so by that logic we should have no great people?

The huns apperance in Roman lands was a blip in the greater history of the Empire and yet we remember them to this day. 

While it works for games like Atilla in Totalwar in small scale having a nomadic civ wondering about for 2000 years makes no sense.

Sounds cool, but it would probably be something worthy of a whole expansion dedicated purely to the new nomadic mechanics, since it's so different from the settled civs. 

I would agree with that. Plus how would nomads work in the late game if there are ways to stay nomadic? Are you just stagnat as your settled neighbors rocket past you?

I agree that its probably out of the scope of the base game I just wanted to have the discussion. 

JohnTheIberian wrote:

I would agree with that. Plus how would nomads work in the late game if there are ways to stay nomadic? Are you just stagnat as your settled neighbors rocket past you?

eventually you would need to become a settled civ in order to progress, you'd be gated out of entering the industrial era say until you became settled otherwise as you say you would fall behind unless you manage to murder everyone else in the game before they got there haha.

"I begin with a settler unit on a hexagonal map "

From here: https://www.polygon.com/2019/8/19/20809087/humankind-sega-amplitude-windows-pc-release-date-preview-civilization 

You ever play the boardgame Root? The Vagabond is a wandering "faction" that thanks to the asymmetry of the game and it's objectives, remains completely viable, just wandering the map causing chaos, helping, hindering and generally doing his own thing....

Realise this is a different beast of a game, but itinerant factions are possible.

we need to overlook the culture heritage ... what is nomadic culture ? arabian, hungarian, mongolian ?

I could definitely see something like the roving clans present in the game with nomadic cultures that have the option of packing up cities and districts into slow moving tent caravans and resettling. I would think that cultures that were well known as both nomads and settled empires would work best. 

For instance, the Scythians of the classical era were a menace to Achaenemid Persia as nomads, allegedly killing Cyrus the Great, before settling down and later conquering Persia to form the Parthian Empire, which would menace Rome during the Roman-Parthian Wars. Other options include the Mongols in the medieval era, founders of the Yuan Dynasty, and the Turkic nomads under Tamerlane in the renaissance period, founders of both the Timurid and Mughal empires.

Turning cities into caravans would be a risk for the player, as they would be vulnerable to attack and would abandon resource extractors and monuments, but could enable the player to leave barren regions or poor start locations in favor of more resource rich areas. This would be especially useful if an ice age or climate change mechanic is present. It could also be used strategically to move cities to a more defensible position in the event of an immenent invasion, or move cities towards a player you plan to attack as a forward base.

The other option, maybe less exciting, would be to have minor factions migrate through territories so your neighbors are less predictable. This was true in ancient China, for instance: they trade with the peaceful Yuezhi and get used to having a safe and stable border, then suddenly the Xiongnu move in and the whole frontier is set ablaze by raids.

Pastoral or Nomadic Factions historically were very important as both military opponents and trading partners and 'middlemen' until the Renaissance. As mentioned, the pastorals of Central Asia, from the modern Ukraine to western China, dominated the entire area and played a major part in overland trade - including the famous 'Silk Road'. Because virtually every adult male was also a fighter to defend the herds and flocks, they could project military power far more potent than their numbers would suggest: the first horse-riders, the Cimmerians, raided the Hittites, the Scythians fought the Persian Empire to a standstill, gave Alexander his hardest campaigns in "Soghdiana" (modern Afghanistan), and pastoral tribes like the Sarmatians, Parthians, Huns, Bulgars, Magyars, Hsung-Nu, Jurchen, Alans, Avars, Pechenegs, Mongols, Manchus, and 'Tatars' both bedeviled their sedentary neighbors and also were hired by them - for a while Byzantine Armies were composed almost entirely of native Cataphractii and hired Hun horse archers. In the Notitia Dignitorum list of late Roman Imperial units, there are a lot of Sagitarii Equites units listed - mounted archers - who were all hired nomads.

The whole thing lasted about 2000 years, and came to an end with gunpowder. In the 15th century, the Great Horde (Mongol successors) and Kazan Khanate in southern Russia - collectively refered to as Tatars or Tartars - exacted Tribute from all the Russian city states. In the following century, Muscovite Streltsi musketeers began moving south down the Don and Dnester/Dnepr Rivers, driving the nomads before them. By the following century it was Russian all the way to Astrakhan and Rostov on the Caspian Sea and Black Sea coasts, respectively.

To make 'Nomad' (actually, Pastoral) Factions/Cvs work in a game, their Mobile Resources have to accurately modeled: the fact that from their herds they could 'extract' horn, bone, and leather, from which to manufacture composite bows, saddles and tack for their deadly mounted archers, and with that military superiority they could extract metal manufactures and other 'sedentary' goods from their neighbors. That means that the 'Nomad Camp' as a substitute for a stationary City has to be able to keep extracting and stockpiling Resources like in-game Gold and Production while it moves, and a certain amount of Scientific advance as well: after all, the nomadic Avars introduced the stirrup to Europe (and the first depiction of a full-foot stirrup is from the Kushan nomads of Central Asia) and the Tang Dynasty in China adopted fully-armored lancers as their Primary Military Elite from the 'northern Barbarian' nomads.

There's also some versatility to the Pastorals. The Scythians had several cities of their own (they are mentioned by name in Herdotus) and the Great Horde had a settled capital at Batu Sarai (the site of modern Volgogard on the Volga River) so the 'nomads' don't necessarily have to be always relying on mobile Camps only.

In gameplay terms, a nomadic civ would most likely only be able to control one settled city at a time unless settling down in an established civilization. Since the regions are similar to the ones in Endless Legend, this should help to represent the low population density and decentralized nature of a nomad. A possible way to extend influence over multiple territories would be made possible by having a mobile, but less productive city (tribe) that controls the region but can only utilize resources close to it. Should a player want to migrate then they can always begin the process of moving the established city and the tribes will always be ready to move.

I'm not a massive fan of limiting expansion, but there should be consequences on trying to hold too much land while being so decentralized. I don't know how this would be possible, but maybe increasing the risk of rebellion and or infighting will increase the more territoryyou try to hold, potentially being forestalled if you have a good leader like Genghis Khan or Timur Tamerlane.

Personman09 wrote:

In gameplay terms, a nomadic civ would most likely only be able to control one settled city at a time unless settling down in an established civilization. Since the regions are similar to the ones in Endless Legend, this should help to represent the low population density and decentralized nature of a nomad. A possible way to extend influence over multiple territories would be made possible by having a mobile, but less productive city (tribe) that controls the region but can only utilize resources close to it. Should a player want to migrate then they can always begin the process of moving the established city and the tribes will always be ready to move.

I'm not a massive fan of limiting expansion, but there should be consequences on trying to hold too much land while being so decentralized. I don't know how this would be possible, but maybe increasing the risk of rebellion and or infighting will increase the more territoryyou try to hold, potentially being forestalled if you have a good leader like Genghis Khan or Timur Tamerlane.

One possibility for the Game would be that the Nomads cannot buld a city, but they can conquer a city or Outpost from either a major or minor Faction and convert it into 'their own' City. That would keep their total number of Cities down, and there could also be a mechanism where if they have more Cities than Nomad Camps the Civ 'flips' to a settled Faction - as did the Ottoman Turks in Anatolia and the Mongols in China.

After the initial periods of the game, the Other Problem of the nomadic/pastoral Civ is how to Transition, because once the settled Factions have Gunpowder the pastoralists are in a hopeless situation. If they don't settle down in some way and start getting the advantages of City Production and Science, as did the Yuan Dynasty (Mongols) in China, they are Doomed by the end of the Renaissance. Allowing 'conversion' automatically if they  conquer enough Cities would be a realtively clean way to model this, and also cement the pastoralists as aggressive Factions - as they were IRL.

Variations beetwen culture playstyles would be cool like that example you gave, the huns and others.

IvantheTolerable wrote:

One possibility for the Game would be that the Nomads cannot buld a city, but they can conquer a city or Outpost from either a major or minor Faction and convert it into 'their own' City. That would keep their total number of Cities down, and there could also be a mechanism where if they have more Cities than Nomad Camps the Civ 'flips' to a settled Faction - as did the Ottoman Turks in Anatolia and the Mongols in China.

After the initial periods of the game, the Other Problem of the nomadic/pastoral Civ is how to Transition, because once the settled Factions have Gunpowder the pastoralists are in a hopeless situation. If they don't settle down in some way and start getting the advantages of City Production and Science, as did the Yuan Dynasty (Mongols) in China, they are Doomed by the end of the Renaissance. Allowing 'conversion' automatically if they  conquer enough Cities would be a realtively clean way to model this, and also cement the pastoralists as aggressive Factions - as they were IRL.

Not a bad idea, although the Renaissance as the end of Nomadic cultures Seems too early as Even in the renaissance, nomadic "factions" still existed in africa, and the Cossacks are an historical example that can we used to support the idea that nomadic factions stay relavent into the game until the rise of the industrial era, At which point they simply cannot compete with other powers.

I would love a mod for this that is solely nomadic/pastoralist cultures. It would make for some really fun gameplay.