Around a month and a half ago, the community learned about denuvo being in the game, and since then its become the largest trending topic on this site, with 1 post about it having just gained over 1000 views in under a month, and another has passed 900, both posts do not speak positively about denuvo in humankind, one of which is a almost pure negative response. This is not good for humankind, denuvo is one of the most hated anti-cheat devices on the internet and it will make people very reluctant to buy games with denuvo, ive already heard people are refunding their pre orders. The community wants answers, how long will denuvo be on humankind, will it have any restrictions, what caused you to place it in the game? 

PARAdoxiBLE wrote:

DragonGaming wrote:
denuvo is one of the most hated anti-cheat device

Wasn't it just an anti-tamper aka DRM assistant? Denuvo anti-temper & Denuvo anti-cheat are two different things.

even if it is anti-tamper, denuvo as a whole is hated, and any game that even mentions denuvo will not be seen as positively as it would without denuvo.

Steam says that the game includes Denuvo Anti-Tamper. But the EULA also says that they can basically do whatever they want with no limitations and no responsibility for any damage done by Denuvo, so who really knows? That's the problem. No communication.

now theres another anti-denuvo post that is gaining traction with over 400 views, this is spiraling out of control, that makes it 3 anti-denuvo and if stretched, anti-amplitude posts that are trending now, and i expect it to get only worse.

DragonGaming wrote:

PARAdoxiBLE wrote:

DragonGaming wrote:
denuvo is one of the most hated anti-cheat device

Wasn't it just an anti-tamper aka DRM assistant? Denuvo anti-temper & Denuvo anti-cheat are two different things.

even if it is anti-tamper, denuvo as a whole is hated, and any game that even mentions denuvo will not be seen as positively as it would without denuvo.

Reactions are actually different. The cases of Denuvo anti-cheat of DOOM Eternal or Vanguard anti-cheat of Valorant were highly controversial to the extent of id deciding to scrap it from DOOM while Denuvo antI-tamper is used quite frequently.

i can safely say that my post can be considered the 4th trending posts in regards about denuvo with now over 300 views, and worse a 5th post about denuvo has arisen a hour ago as of this comment, and already has over 200 views. yes, 200 views in less than an hour, in less than 60 minutes after being posted. Its official, this is now out of control.

I'm all for tidy forums, but belittling problems isn't a solution. Topic obviously have traction among many players, not only here, but also on Steam, Reddit and wherever else you go.

Sublustris wrote:

I will. This is belittling:

Kutuzov wrote:
same folks who are posting in them or reading them

Kutuzov wrote:
noise created by a small number of posters

What you are saying here is that Denuvo is not an issue (because it isn't for you, duh), so you conclude that only vocal minority will grumble about it or be interested in the topic. Well you are wrong. Have a pleasant day.

Very well said Sublustris, i agree 100% with what you said and thanks for the post

Sublustris wrote:

You keep repeating that they are minority, but they aren't - steam forums were flooded with denuvo threads for almost a month, reddit had large threads until they got deleted.

The hate for denuvo is pretty universal among gamers wherever you go. You must understand, that it's purpose is purely to satisfy publisher/developer and nothing more. It's inferior in every way to legit players. Not every tech-savy aware of its presence, even less how it works, but those that know see they have zero gains and myriad of actual and potential issues with it.

Gamers who post on discussion boards, these boards, Steam, Reddit, wherever are already a very tiny fraction of gamers as a whole. This game will sell hundreds of thousands of copies but you will never see more than 1 or 2% of these folks posting online or even participating passively here by viewing threads. I'd say overall that only a fraction of a percentage point of actual gamers bother with discussion boards except for multiplayer games.

You will find several of these same posters making the same posts on each of these boards as well amplifying their presence. I'm not saying that there's anything 'wrong' with that either but neither is there anything wrong with pointing this out. Doing so seems to have offended some of you in this discussion for some reason. I recognise a few of the names of posters here from elsewhere and you won't find me active in any other discussion board about Denuvo than here because I'm not particularly concerned about it and am happy to let the decision lie with the developers and I'm not going to bully them into it. I've read about Denuvo and I recognise some of the points of concern that are repeated here*, maybe even exaggerated a little from time to time to make it sound like one report is 'many reports' to make others who are not so inclined to do the reading for themselves more frightened than they need to be. I will also determine for myself what its purpose is, thank you. I hope you can respect that people do not like being told what to think. ;)

People who post on these boards often have concerns which they often can't all agree upon further making any claim to be a 'majority' even more ridiculous. So, yes, some gamers do hate Denuvo. Nobody disputes that but while those that do are noisy and have a substantial online presence compared to the likes of me, you're still far from a majority.

* edit to add a link to a post on Humankind's Steam discussion boards regarding this controversy ...

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/0/3057363335742801947/?ctp=3#c3057364366988386790

Sublustris wrote:

Kutuzov wrote:
Gamers who post on discussion boards, these boards, Steam, Reddit, wherever are already a very tiny fraction of gamers as a whole. This game will sell hundreds of thousands of copies but you will never see more than 1 or 2% of these folks posting online or even participating passively here by viewing threads.

Yes, the rest will simply don't buy the game and be quiet about it. 

Kutuzov wrote:
So, yes, some gamers do hate Denuvo.

Your ability to deny the obvious repels desire to have any meaningful discussion with you. If you think only minor portion hates it, be well in your major part that loves it.

When you disagree with a poster's points, I suggest you think about what the other person is trying to say to you before you respond to their posts. I'm reading what you write, as I do with almost all of the posts I reply to. I could share a tale with you here about how I learned not to trust my initial reading of a post made in response to mine with a poster with whom I had a 'history' but why bother? This is not a "friendly" discussion as you guys have made very clear to me. I said that hundreds of thousands of gamers will buy Humankind and a very tiny number of them will ever participate actively or passively with online discussion boards.

The same applies to your second point. If you don't read, how can we have a meaningful discussion? 'Some' does not mean 'minor'. Why does this notion offend you so much? All you are doing is projecting something of your own that apparently repels you onto what I write. You are simply trying to delegitimise what is written to you by strawmanning the post. I have tried to keep my recent posts respectful but the points I raise are usually recast in a false light and I get insulted to boot :D. This behaviour is perhaps part of the reason why so many gamers choose not to participate in discussion boards.

Denuvo is not as profoundly bad as you want to make it out to be. It is a nuisance, an inconvenience that all of us posting here would rather wasn't there. But it's not the end of the world or a call to arms for me and while I'm definitely in the minority in this discussion, I think you guys are reading too much into this whole affair. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Final point, have you considered that in debating with you that I am keeping this discussion going and active so that the developers can read our exchanges? I am aware of that. Perhaps keeping it civil, actually reading my posts, not misinterpreting them and insulting me might earn your 'side' more points :)

Kutuzov:

You miss the point.

Posters want to know:

One, does this DRM gather information? 

No company not the developers, the publishers, or especially a DRM provider have any need to know anything other than, if and how long a player played this game. Any other information they want should be gathered by voluntary polls.

Two, does this game or its DRM require you to go on line at any time after intial download other than for voluntary patches?

This is important to me for two reasons. 

First I have limited download limits and being online eats it like the Cookie Monster let loose in a Kebler Factory, so I play with my Internet off.

Second Steam forces updates when you go online and start a game. I play long games I do not want my save rendered null because the DRM forces me to start in online mode period end of story this is an absolute game breaker for me. 

The developers and or the publishers have thus far failed to answer these questions. On off the mods or developers is looking into this for me but has yet to get back with official word.

ghostrider6 wrote:

Kutuzov:

You miss the point.

Posters want to know:

One, does this DRM gather information? 

No company not the developers, the publishers, or especially a DRM provider have any need to know anything other than, if and how long a player played this game. Any other information they want should be gathered by voluntary polls.

Two, does this game or its DRM require you to go on line at any time after intial download other than for voluntary patches?

This is important to me for two reasons. 

First I have limited download limits and being online eats it like the Cookie Monster let loose in a Kebler Factory, so I play with my Internet off.

Second Steam forces updates when you go online and start a game. I play long games I do not want my save rendered null because the DRM forces me to start in online mode period end of story this is an absolute game breaker for me. 

The developers and or the publishers have thus far failed to answer these questions. On off the mods or developers is looking into this for me but has yet to get back with official word.

 

No, that's not the point I'm making so I'm not missing anything. The point I AM trying to make here is ...

Kutuzov wrote:
Gamers who post on discussion boards, these boards, Steam, Reddit, wherever are already a very tiny fraction of gamers as a whole. This game will sell hundreds of thousands of copies but you will never see more than 1 or 2% of these folks posting online or even participating passively here by viewing threads.

Your questions and concerns are all fine and I'm not addressing them because I just don't know enough about Denuvo to answer them. If anyone does actually know, I'm sure they would have already jumped on your post to answer, 'Yes it does gather information. Yes, it does limit the number of downloads and yes, it does force you to play online so that your saves are corrupted* ( see edit below).'  But that's yet to happen so I think the silence is your answer. We don't know. We don't like it but we don't know.

From my own experience of Denuvo, having played a lot of TW Warhammer both 1 and 2, both games which apparently have or had Denuvo at launch, I didn't experience any problems at all with either game. True, I play online pretty much all the time nowadays so I don't recall trying to launch the game offline once but of my experience with TW WH1 and 2 is anything to go by, I'm going to be alright with Humankind too. I'm being honest here and not pretending that I have experience that I don't to 'win' an argument if that matters to you. Also, to address another poster's 'what-if' hypothetical, I have never been shut out and unable to play these TW WH games I have spent considerably more than $60 on so I have yet to be scammed. In the 'what-if' world, anything is possible and it's impossible to disprove these fantasies because they're just that, fantasies.

Once again, I do not like Denuvo and I would like it to be removed. However, it's not a deal-breaker for me and, as I've previously said, I do think I'm in the majority there as, mentioned above, this game will almost certainly sell hundreds of thousands of copies in the first few weeks and the number of sales lost due to Denuvo will be tiny when compared. That does not mean that it is not a serious, heart-breaking concern for you guys but it's the big picture that's important and not our little range war here. Sure, keep up the fight and let Amplitude know you hate it and won't buy their game. I am not trying to silence you. But please remember that you're not the only people with a voice and I'm saying that I WILL buy it regardless and so will hundreds of thousands of others, who knows perhaps even a million+ over the course of its lifetime, Denuvo or not. I hope it does and I wish nothing but the best for this studio and this project.

Who knows, it's not utterly unlikely that the whole thing will be patched out after the initial sales rush is over. But this is a SEGA game and Sega really seem to like Denuvo. It appears to be in a lot of their big titles, at least at launch, and yet, in spite of the real concerns of gamers, it hasn't hurt their sales so I don't see much chance of it being removed before launch here. But if it is as a result of your concerns, I will give you guys a cheer.

EDIT to add:

I just checked. I went offline with Steam and was able to launch and play TW WH2 without Steam being online. That's not the same as being completely offline, (hard to do because the whole family uses the wifi connection) but that might address your concern that you could play your old saves without having them corrupted by new updates.

Also, I don't keep games on my HD forever. I cycle them in and out frequently so TW WH1 and 2 have both been been uninstalled and reinstalled several times over the years. How many exactly, I have no idea but it's certainly at least 3 or 4, probably more in TW WH 1's case.

Kwami wrote:

I guess I just don't understand why you continue to post and tell us that we're a minority. Frankly, we don't care. We'll voice our concerns and that's that. You aren't engaging in an honest discussion and you know it. Please, just stop.

Thank you for your observation. If you actually read my post, which I recommend everyone does, you would see that I actually took some time to investigate the poster's question and posted an honest response and have also taken great care to explain my position to people who claim not to be able to understand it and want it to stop without insulting or belittling them.

You should also take great care when accusing another poster of being dishonest. I'm not complaining because I'm an adult and am not offended but others may not be so forgiving. ;)

Good day to you, sir.

Well i honestly don`t know what is the most sad thing of all: that Amplitude sold itself to Sega, That Humankind will have Denuvo or that a lot of people on this thread can`t stop explaining things to a guy who said he does not want any explanation because he stated he does not care about DRM and dislikes the fact that others have different opinions than him and aggressively attacked everyone calling them names than playing the role of the victim than the role of a foreseer who knows how many sales are from what kind of customers and so on, so when somebody reads this thread will understand it is not about Denuvo and other important issues but it is about trying to convince someone who can`t be convinced with endless arguing and stories

DNLH wrote:

While I want to find a hammer and hit myself with it every time GlorySign post their mantra about selling out, there's a difference between posters trying to make their word the only one heard and trying to make their word heard at all. What's going on with Denuvo issue currently is the latter, so far we didn't even have a confirmation that the criticism was heard. Hell, I'd take some PR-bullshit talk about DRM not causing any major issues, to at least know that Amplitude acknowledges there's something going on. Wouldn't be necessarily happy about it, but that's at least something.

LOL. Well don`t hit yourself with anything as violence is never the answer. 

As for Amplitude selling to Sega is just a fact that happened and it seems it brought changes with it that we are discussing here. Hopefully as you said they will have a statement for this issue if they care and that is fine or we will be ignored and that is also a statement and that is also fine. It is up to them and we will know soon if selling to Sega changed who they are regarding their community and practices or not

A developer posted this on the first Steam discussion about a month ago ...

1. First, please note that this post doesn't represent any form of "official" stance from amplitude (or even from me) about DRMs/Denuvo. It's just me, as a dev, reacting to this thread.
   
   When i read some answers here, i find it clear that there have been, over the years, a lot of sh*tstorms about DRMs/anti-cheat systems, and people do tend to mix things up.
   
   So, i just want to clarify briefly some simple things. "Classic" integrated DRM like Denuvo:
   
   - Doesn't install or monitor anything on your PC. It's not an anti-cheat system. Denuvo Software does market an anti-cheat system, but that's not the solution we're talking about there.
   
   - Doesn't require you to be always (or even often) online. It would drive me CRAZY.
   
   - Doesn't require you to create any account. Well, other than your Steam account.
   
   - Doesn't gather any personnal information.
   
   It's, to summarize, just some code asking from time to time if you really own the game on steam, plus some obfuscation to keep this code hidden well enough.
   
   It can potentially, as we all have seen in the past, impact game performances if not integrated within the game "smartly" enough (lets say, if it keeps asking 500 times per minute if you really bought the game during gameplay).
   
   
   Again, i'm not trying to convince you for or against Denuvo or DRMs. I'm not knowing everything there is to know about them.
   I just find these discussions important for the gaming ecosystem, and wanted to add my 2 cents.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1124300/discussions/0/4325125547795665908/?ctp=3#c3081006600721811390

So, they are aware of the community's concerns.

Kutuzov wrote:

A developer posted this on the first Steam discussion about a month ago ...

So, i just want to clarify briefly some simple things. "Classic" integrated DRM like Denuvo:

- Doesn't install or monitor anything on your PC. It's not an anti-cheat system. Denuvo Software does market an anti-cheat system, but that's not the solution we're talking about there.

- Doesn't require you to be always (or even often) online. It would drive me CRAZY.

- Doesn't require you to create any account. Well, other than your Steam account.

- Doesn't gather any personnal information.

Well you should read official information like the EULA that you agree with when you download the Denuvo game as that is what you agree to, not what somebody said that also underlines it is not official. The EULA on the contrary says IT WILL gather data, it WILL limit the number of installs and so on

Also when the Denuvo servers shut down for any reason (including that a better DRM solution will come up and they go out of business) you will not be able to run the game that you paid for anymore and will not be refunded as happened recently to Might and Magic X that also used a heavy DRM solution 

GlorySign wrote:

Kutuzov wrote:

A developer posted this on the first Steam discussion about a month ago ...

So, i just want to clarify briefly some simple things. "Classic" integrated DRM like Denuvo:

- Doesn't install or monitor anything on your PC. It's not an anti-cheat system. Denuvo Software does market an anti-cheat system, but that's not the solution we're talking about there.

- Doesn't require you to be always (or even often) online. It would drive me CRAZY.

- Doesn't require you to create any account. Well, other than your Steam account.

- Doesn't gather any personnal information.

Well you should read official information like the EULA that you agree with when you download the Denuvo game as that is what you agree to, not what somebody said that also underlines it is not official. The EULA on the contrary says IT WILL gather data, it WILL limit the number of installs and so on

Also when the Denuvo servers shut down for any reason (including that a better DRM solution will come up and they go out of business) you will not be able to run the game that you paid for anymore and will not be refunded as happened recently to Might and Magic X that also used a heavy DRM solution 

From EULA

This Product may beprotected by anti-cheat/hacking software and/or Denuvo Anti-Tamper Protection Technology (“Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology”). You hereby acknowledge and agree to the following regarding the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology:

the installation of the Product will cause the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology to be installed on your device;

the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may limit the number of installations of the Product;

the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may install on your device additional components required for copy protection;

during the installation and/or the first launch of the Product, an online connection may be required to activate the Product and the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology;

and certain files of the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology may remain even after the Product is uninstalled from your device.

In no event shall SEGA be liable to you in connection with the components that may be installed on your device relating to the Denuvo Anti-Tamper Technology.

You should be aware that "WILL" and "may" have different meanings, right?

If you are going to say a dev comment isn't a confirmed source, you shouldn't call "may do sth" as "confirmed."

Hmm. Whose judgement am I going to trust more on this matter, a developer who has some real experience of this in the game and who took the time to post his understanding of the matter or yours? Don't know. :D

I am not going to comment on what he said or your points because until someone from Amplitude officially makes a statement, we're just barking at the moon. I think that developer post above answers some of the concerns raised here. It is up to Amplitude to respond to your concerns on this matter. If that's not enough for you, you're just going to have to keep asking. 

Oops. Paradoxable, you replied before me. My post was in response to Glorysign's post.

PARAdoxiBLE wrote:

You should be aware that "WILL" and "may" have different meanings, right?

If you are going to say a dev comment isn't a confirmed source, you shouldn't call "may do sth" as "confirmed."

That is very true and you should also be aware that "may" does not mean "will not"

Also i don`t know who said that it is not a confirmed source i just said it is not official quoting the dev: "First, please note that this post doesn't represent any form of "official" stance from amplitude (or even from me) about DRMs/Denuvo."

Hey everyone, 

Just wanted to give a heads up that our Studio Head has responded here on the earlier thread: https://www.games2gether.com/amplitude-studios/humankind/forums/168-general/threads/41273-the-day-amplitude-broke-my-heart?page=5#post-323003

Thanks