Hi every one,

we discussed on discord about how to integrate some lost worlds / myths / real world inside the game. So we choose to avoid wonders, humans or human creation and we get focused on place/location and associated era :

- Myths are imaginary tales of popular origin allowing a civilization to transform into understandable symbolic form a concept that language did not allow to model at the time. It is the most archaic of languages (metalanguage). 

- The myths being essentially transmitted by poetry, books, painting, sculpture, it is normal that an aesthetic civilization is the most appropriate to create them ( bonus on stability if expedition success ). But expansionist civilisation should be also very prepared for this kind of expedition ( bonus for expedition cost ).

- Myths cannot take the form of wonders in the game since they are not constructions.

- All of the myths have in common that they take place in an (sometimes imaginary) place, which involves creating an expedition to seek the truth.

- So we think the most obvious way to integrate these locations is the event system :

A persistent history in your population comes to your ears, and your advisers suggest that you make a decision:

1 / Send an expedition to find this place:

- display the% chance of success,

- the cost of shipping,

- allocation of a means of transport (mainly by boat),

- allocation of a heroic character or a general 

- time allocation

2 / Do nothing and let this myth settle in the population:

- affects the population in the sense that it increases the hope or the fear generated by the myth (stability +/-)

3 / Combat this myth

- repression of the population, censorship, ... (stability --) 

Tis is a list of possible myths associated to event system :

1. ANCIEN : Mu, Lemuria
2. CLASSICAL : Hyperboreans, Atlantis, Isle of immortals, Kêr-Is island, Celtic sacred trees
3. MEDIEVAL : kingdom of prester John, the seven cities of cibola
4. EARLY MODERN : El dorado
5. INDUSTRIAL : King Solomon's mine, Antarctic, Arctic
6. CONTEMPORARY : Sunken city, the lost world ( different than jurassic park )

Possibly selected : 

1. CLASSICAL : eastern island > we think isles of immortals is a better choice.
2. MEDIEVAL : Avalon island, Broceliande forest > from arthurian legend, broceliand forest exist but avalon ... 
3. CONTEMPORARY : The beach > a place for freedom seeking by the new generation but maybe too much ( with di caprio inside ) ?
4. CONTEMPORARY : Bermuda triangle > maybe too specific location is a problem for integration in game.

If not enought, you can pick ideas from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mythological_places 

Finding this place involve 50 to 200 famous points but also confirm your people to think some myths are true ( stability ++ ). Some discover can bring gold ( money ++ ) or culture. Some of them will never be found ( Mu for exemple ) but we can discover a big island instead ? and some of them will be found with a complete different reality > the lost world with prehistorical animals become a cavern with painting of great values ... 

Do not hesitate to give your perception.

Thank you by advance.

I really like this idea! It deserves that we look more on it.

I'm just worrying a little about these events in the early eras, when you can't cross oceans. where should they be? Only in your continent ? I mean it's ok that it's not easily reachable (it's actually the point of it) but it can be boring for some people if you can't reach half of the events. 

The 'Lost world' is great.

Second question. How do you think you will introduce the place? for the story it's easy, but for the placew it could be a little more tricky.  I imagine a couple of options: 

-  A pseudo map with a lot of empty spaces.

-  A treasure map (ar the west of the black forest, close the a lone mountain, in a tropical jungle, etc.) ? 

other myths idea: 

 'The lost city of Z' (industry era) 

Area51 (cont. era)

Turtle island _ with a pirate treasure to find, or not (early modern era, i know it's not a myth, but could work like one)

Hi Metacomet,

For the first point, game interface must show the chance of success before player confirm his choice. <80 % and you will find nothing ... but the good news is that myths are persistant in a culture so you can try again later (during culture era or on next eras ) with more chance to find out. Obviously finding MU ( for EGYPTIAN culture ) or ATLANTIS ( for GREEK culture ) is a long expedition in the sea which involve they have a marine unit. Benefits are relative to the difficulty of the expedition.

For the second point, you don't have to "book" some hexagonal cases because :

- The location is always "a part of " one hexagonal case, it doesn't need to be larger,

- Once discovered, the player just have to recognise them by a specific logo ( as ressources does on game for exemple ).

So if you want to find the truth about Lemuria you need a boat.

If the hexagonal case where the myth is located may have been already discovered by someone else, other player has only discovered the geography by passing on nearest case or they may have passed on the case but not looking for what you are seeking. The idea is that the myth can be a reality for the player who seeking  it ( and obviously not visible to others ) or stay a myth ( nothing to find or something completely different ). Your expedition is ready and prepared for speleology for exemple, which is different than the first unit exploring the game at the beggining. The best exemple i can give is king's valley was known long time before to find the toutankhamon tomb ( Touthankamon is not a myth and could not be include in the list ).

Another solution is to say the link between culture and myth is 1 <> 1 , said diferently, one myth belong to only one culture and only the player who choosed the culture can make an expedition to find the reality of this myth. Consequence 1 : you only have to show the location to one player and not to the others, consequence 2  : there's no competition between players for the same myth as myths are created by people from a unique culture. Consequence 3 : a player has to play many times to discover all the myth in game ( at least 10 games because 10 cutlure by era ). 

Also, one myth can be developped under many expeditions that followed themselves ( storytelling ).

In comparison of what is implemented in other games :

- We thought this have to be diferent than "ANNO 1800 expedition" which propose only a treasure expedition and benefits, even if interesting ( bonus object or wild animal or museum object ), has not major impact in game.

- It has to be also different from CIV6 where exploration has always the same benefits ( museum object only ) and depend on already knew location ( this a pick up travel and not an exploration with uncertain issues ). 

- Humankind look likes to be cultural oriented and historical precised, it is preferable to stay about lost civ or myths domain than playing adventurer with treasure map ( my two cents ). 

- The benefits of these expedition is close to what happen on CIV 6 when you exterminate barbaric > gain population +1 to the city where exploration start, you gain bonus for research, a certain amount of money ( cibola cities for exemple ), cultural bonus ( for the lost world for exemple ) which hexagonal case can be develop, after found it, with cultural square for exemple, or faith bonus ( celtic treee for exemple ), and always a bonus/malus on stability for your people ( bonus for succeed, malus for failed ).  

In that philosophy, area 51 could not be include in the list because everyone know where it is. The only interest ( for real ) of area 51 is to find what's inside : it's a treasure quest much more than discovering reality/myth. Lost city of Z could be in the list and obviously we could find ruins ( as always ) with a specific bonus like cultural for exemple on this case.

To be discussed.

Aye_Avast wrote:

I'm skeptical of how well this could be done, if only because I think it is such a complex issue. Take for example the legend of El Dorado (the one I think I know the best).

Historically:

1. Pre-existing trade with India and China starts legend of land of gold.

Creation of the myth of EL DORADO > nothing to do in game.

2. Columbus makes expedition, finds minimal riches. Native stories reinforce his belief that the land of gold is near.

Spanish civilisation has the benefit of discovering the new world and the rumour/myth is getting louder and louder

EL DORADO Exploration 1 can be started ( spanish only ) : Send an explorer with a boat to start colonization and find out the reality of gold's mine in the new world.

3. Further expeditions discover some wealth, but not the legendary level.

EL DORADO Exploration 1 is finished after 30 turns ( spanish only ) : we found some gold ( + 1250 money ) and a lot of villages have been colonized ( population + 1 and stability + 5 on every cities, +150 flavour points ),  

EL DORADO Exploration 1 is a fail ( spanish only ) : rebellion on the boat, boat lost somewhere, ... ( stability -1 on every cities, no famous points ) > do you want to retry this expedition ? 

4. Spanish eventually develop colonies to create and mine the precious metals.

EL DORADO Exploration 2 can be started ( spanish only ) : The first expedition was a success, now you have to colonize a vast area of the new world and keep in mind that the main objectives is to find more gold than ever ...

EL DORADO Exploration 2 is finished afetr 30 turn ( spanish only ) : the el dorado doesn't exist and few golds have been found ( + 500 money ) but the violence and atrocity used on local population arrived on ears of migrant populations in mainland ( stability - 10 on every cities during 10 turns, +100 flavour points ),  

EL DORADO Exploration 2 is a fail ( spanish only ) : rebellion on new world, boat lost somewhere, ... ( stability -1 on every cities, no famous points ) > do you want to retry this expedition ?

So there needs to be some prerequisite that determines which legend is available. Some will be pre-determined during map generation, but most of these legends are, as mentioned contextual.

It can't be contextual if one myth belong to only one culture and every culture has only one myth to discover. Maybe 3 or 4 flags are needed to allow the expedition  for the player.

 El Dorado only makes sense if your nation knows that there is another nation far away with large amounts of rare goods or money. 

Spanish sent Colombus to find a new road to traditional india road and not to find gold on a new world. They start to find gold after Colombus came back to Spain.

Then there needs to be the initial response, any mid-term events (expedition lost at sea, discovers new land, etc,) and the finale.

I would encourage you to look at Amplitude's "Zen of Strategy Narrative" (link=https://youtu.be/JASBqKHcqeY?t=2163) as well as the story pack for Paradox's Stellaris.

Thank you for this information.

Safe wrote:
It is the most archaic of languages (metalanguage). 

I think a bit of an explanation is required here, this statement is not true (or wrongly put).

Every language, from ancient times until now, has the ability to produce metalanguage, or conceptualize which is basically the same. An easy example is the concept of colour : the concept doesn't exist physically by itself, it only exists because there are several physical colours (i.e the primary colours : blue, red, yellow). Without being able to first name (differentiate) those colours, we wouldn't be able to speak abstractively about colours, therefore using the general concept of colour. So metalanguage is not an archaic form of language, it is an ability of every form of language.

Safe wrote:
- Myths are imaginary tales of popular origin allowing a civilization to transform into understandable symbolic form a concept that language did not allow to model at the time.

Again, not quite so. I'm quoting here the wikipedia article, pretty well documented. If you're interested to know more, you should dig into Claude Levi-Strauss' and Mircea Eliade's works/studies (among many others) regarding myths : "Myth, a story of the gods, a religious account of the beginning of the world, the creation, fundamental events, the exemplary deeds of the gods as a result of which the world, nature, and culture were created together with all parts thereof and given their order, which still obtains. A myth expresses and confirms society's religious values and norms, it provides a pattern of behavior to be imitated, testifies to the efficacy of ritual with its practical ends and establishes the sanctity of cult".

To make it as simple as possible, a myth is in fact a humanly constructed tale/story used to legitimate a world's view, a religion, a form of gouvernment. Which leads to what has already been said above, a myth is contextually created : it belongs to a particular culture/civilization, and to a particular time/era of that culture/civilization.

The "Eldorado" myth is a very good example of that. After Columbus' "New World discovery", this myth began to grow more and more, leading to the Conquest of the New World. In fact, the myth has been used by conquistadors (along with others justifications) to legitimate their actions in the New World (colonization, slavery, etc ...). We have to bear in minds the historical context in which all of this happened. At the time of the "New World discovery", Spain was relieving from the "Reconquista". All this period had an impact on the "country/kingdom" wealth, along with a very strong ideological and religious desire for revenge. Finding new territories, supposedly or thought to be wealthy, was indeed a simple justification by itself to invade, conquer and colonize those territories.

All this to say that, when it comes to the game Humankind, given the complexity of the mechanisms already in the game and the huge number of cultural mixing possibilities, what is suggested above would add another big layer of complexity, which I don't think is necessary.

But I agree that this could be interesting at some point, in the events mechanism (and might well already be, who knows, we've only been shown 1/5th or so of the game so far).

PS : I just watched this new interview with Jeff Spock, very interesting. He gives a good insight of the event and narrative mechanisms.

Waykot wrote:

Safe wrote:
It is the most archaic of languages (metalanguage). 

I think a bit of an explanation is required here, this statement is not true (or wrongly put).

Safe : However, this is a citation from Claude Levi Strauss  book ... and by the way, thank you for not lending me intentions that I did not write.

Safe wrote:
- Myths are imaginary tales of popular origin allowing a civilization to transform into understandable symbolic form a concept that language did not allow to model at the time.

To make it as simple as possible, a myth is in fact a humanly constructed tale/story used to legitimate a world's view, a religion, a form of gouvernment. Which leads to what has already been said above, a myth is contextually created : it belongs to a particular culture/civilization, and to a particular time/era of that culture/civilization.

Safe : agree with this but do not confuse myths (in the original sense, that is to say mythical) with propaganda (which exploits / creates myths in its interest). From a propaganda point of view, current fake news has the same effects then ancient myths, except that some are created by those who have power, others by those who do not have it.The intention of the focus group in Discord was to address ancient myths in HUMANKIND which is not a political game.

All this to say that, when it comes to the game Humankind, given the complexity of the mechanisms already in the game and the huge number of cultural mixing possibilities, what is suggested above would had another big layer of complexity, which I don't think is necessary.

Safe : I agree with the fact it will bring another layer of complexity. The dev team will be able to choose if it worth it or not.

But I agree that this could be interesting at some point, in the events mechanism (and might well already be, who knows, we've only been shown 1/5th or so of the game so far).

Safe wrote:
Safe : However, this is a citation from Claude Levi Strauss  book ... and by the way, thank you for not lending me intentions that I did not write.

I'm not sure to understand the last part of your answer, but rest assured, I'm not lending you intentions or speaking in your place.

Your first sentence is incorrect to me : there's obviously a word missing. I think it should read : It is the most archaic form of languages (metalanguage).

You said it's quoted from a C. Levi-Strauss' book : could you give the full quote here (in french if you want) and the book name ? (Les Mythologiques ?)

As I was explaining above, a myth is a constructed story from one culture/civilization, it is based on the language of this culture/civilization. Myths wouldn't exist without language. We need words, sounds, ideas that we can use (concepts) in order to tell/write/transmit a particular myth. From what I recall from my anthropology courses, I guess then that the sense of the quote would have to be understood in a general way : myth is the first way (in the sense of the archaic term used : the most basic mean) humans have had to transmit their story, either to their own group or to others.

Safe wrote:
Safe : agree with this but do not confuse myths (in the original sense, that is to say mythical) with propaganda (which exploits / creates myths in its interest).

I don't think I ever made this assumption. But if you think a bit on how myths work, then you could say it is a form of "soft" propaganda.

Safe wrote:
The dev team will be able to choose if it worth it or not.

Obviously yes ! I mean, we're just discussing and making suggestions here :)

I found a new image of civics view, and if you look carefully, one of the civic is called "Founding Myth" !

So basically, we can imagine that your civilization could create a founding myth that your adversaries will have to try to dismantle for example.

From my point of view, this should not prevent your civilization from appropriating the benefits of another myth as described in the first post.