Hi gang. I'm hyped for the game and one thing I was wondering about was how well the game will represent true human history.

What I mean is the often neglected more sinister and dark side of mankind's past. I fully understand that introducing concepts like often mentioned slavery can be really tricky and is a touchy subject for a reason but there's a lot humanity has experienced and endured throughout the ages.

You've human sacrifices, cannibalism, brutal religious oppression, inhumane torture methods, slavery, ancient greeks with their.. open minded bath houses, drug infused military personnel, painful cultural beautification(sp?) methods like tying of toes in ancient China or those neck rings in African tribes and so on and so forth.

I'm not asking you to go full grimdark with the game, but more about representing these more... inconvenient things that have occurred through history. I think I saw a pic from some Aztec (or Maya?) unique building, Sacrifical Altar. Things like that are well and good enough. Just so humanity will be represented in it's full spectrum. This should be doable especially with you having real historians you're consulting so I don't doubt your knowledge on the subject with the resources that you have at your disposal.

How those "evil" parts of history are represented, can also be toned down. Give them alternative descriptive names and you're pretty much set. I just feel going the route of focusing only on the good and inspiring elements of humanity will give a bit biased picture of where we came from. That, and of course history is history. All the darker things indeed did happen. Genital mutilations happen even these days, witches were indeed burned, cannibalism is a real thing and bamboo sticks were inserted under toenails. Medieval Europe didn't have knights in shining armors, life was dirty and cheap. War was (and is, I guess) a lot, lot more terrible than just shooting the guy standing opposite you and taking his stuff & land. Ask the Asia expert guys about Nanjing Massacre if you're so inclined. Don't, if you value your sleep.

Given all these horrors of the past, it's nice to see where we've evolved. Modern first world environment is something the majority of us take for granted and with you creating a 'real-history' based 4X, it'd be nice to get a comprehensive picture of the journey from ancient times to our present day with all the ups and downs.

And hey, accurate history representation is educational! All the younger people eventually grabbing the game might get a grade or two better at school. So, there's that too!

That sounds swell! I definitely like the idea of having those kinds of concepts as general mechanics, with some cultures having an emphasis on utilizing them.

If we go with the human sacrifice for example, the Emblematic Quarter is a fine way to introduce the concept. I wouldn't be surprised if that's all there is to it, a special district with unique perks/traits and no bigger mechanics behind it. It's a clean and simple way to tell people that "so there used to be these guys who used to do this". The 'bad stuff' doesn't need to be in your face.

I don't think the barbaric parts of our ancient past vilify any particular culture. Our history is long and back in the ancient days, most if not all peoples used to do horrible things from our perspective. That's just how things were when societies and technology wasn't so evolved. If you've no game to hunt and only sustainable source of protein is your own kin, it's really no wonder that people resort to cannibalism and infuse that to their culture. Be it vikings, celts or maori, they weren't nice people if you were on the wrong end of sharp stick.

I'd like to think that most people can agree on a broad concept of "ancient people were uncivilized". It's just that the depth of the uncivility is often times neglected and we often times tend to romantize the days of the old. For example, I just happened to listen to Bach today, true story. While jamming his rad beats, I randomly figured to read a bit about him and via Wikipedia found out that he married this girl in her twenties when he was 35 or so. Anyway, time passes and eventually so does Bach. Goes blind after a charlatan doc brutalizes his eyesight and he dies some months later. His wife was left without support, resorted to begging on the streets and eventually died penniless. A heartwrenching story for sure.

I mean, this is Bach. A guy who lived some 300 years ago and is world renown for his music. A superstar back in his day too. To imagine that the wife of such a successful man dies a beggar can be shocking if one is unaware of the cultural setting way back then. To add to the tragedy, this great man met his untimely death most likely in the hands of this uneducated imposter. Medicine ain't what it used to be. I'm really happy I don't have to see a dentist of 17th century or anything.

In gaming, we'd typically see Bach and his time as a period of great cultural innovation, and only that. The baroque era, famous for what it is. But it wasn't all roses.

That's what I want. The good, bad and the ugly all together.

Well I don't know if it's narrow-minded to highlight Aztecs human sacrifice while not emphasizing Carthagian similar. Since it'd be a pretty massive task to represent each and every culture in all their glory and cruelty, certain things have to be prioritized. As I understand it, Carthagians weren't "big" on child sarcifice while Aztecs seemingly had it as a major element in their way of life.

There was some discussion (was it on Steam forums, or maybe Reddit?) about Dutch not getting polders but East India Company as their EQ too. Both are pretty big things for them but it had to be one or the other since each culture has just 1 Emblematic Quarter. People seemed to defend the choice of leaving polders since it's overrepresented. I can agree with that. Although I guess the same could be said for Aztecs, one thing they're mostly always associated with is the sarcificial element. Hmm.

Anyway, should the game have a sort of encyclopedia, that'd be cool too. All I want is to have accurate historical representation and that seems to be happening with slavery being in the game as a civic and EQs and EUs giving various cultures some theme. I think the event system is a great possibility to explore the historical concepts too. Was it in the alpha footage where there was an event with sex segregation on religious figures, like having all men priests, all female or both? Things like that are good and give structure to our true history.

Beside the gory sacrifices and oppressive social elements, there's other things too. Somewhere there were mentions about how massively important trade used to be. I don't think that has been very well explored in most 4X games. Whoever controls the flow of spice controls the world and all that. The ancient silk road was a pretty big thing and the previously mentioned East India Company/Companies had a monumental impact on the development of things.

Another thing that'd be nice to see would be the environmental elements and their effects on various cultures. Native Americans incorporated bison to their way of life in a big way as I've understood it. The bison herds gave them most of the things they needed for life so it's no wonder that they were coveted and revered animals. So having anything bison-related in either their EQ would be the easy way out but better would be to have either weighted spawn spots or specialized tile yields. Taken further, Native American tribes could get specialized bonuses like unique trade goods to represent their strong affinity with those animals. Ancient Egyptians had a thing with Nile and it's floods. Nobody builds Igloos like the Inuits and so on.

Giving the cultures something beyond 1x unique building thingy and a unit type would go a long way in making them stand out from the others.

What's your thing?

"Well we have this special guy with a special spear, gives you +1 attack."

Ok, what's your thing?

"Well we have this special guy with a special shield, gives you +1 defense."

Uh huh what's your thing?

"Well we have this special building, gives you +1 production on tiles."

....

Much cultural, so variety.

But I guess that's stepping a bit off topic. For historical accuracy, having the good & bad represented with different game mechanics is a plenty. Techs, civics, unique buildings & units, events, flavor texts. Those are good enough for my taste. The game doesn't need to be a heavyweight in exploring all the nitty gritty details and barbaric elements of the past. I just want them to actually exist.

Starbound wrote:

That sounds swell! I definitely like the idea of having those kinds of concepts as general mechanics, with some cultures having an emphasis on utilizing them.

If we go with the human sacrifice for example, the Emblematic Quarter is a fine way to introduce the concept. I wouldn't be surprised if that's all there is to it, a special district with unique perks/traits and no bigger mechanics behind it. It's a clean and simple way to tell people that "so there used to be these guys who used to do this". The 'bad stuff' doesn't need to be in your face.

I don't think the barbaric parts of our ancient past vilify any particular culture. Our history is long and back in the ancient days, most if not all peoples used to do horrible things from our perspective. That's just how things were when societies and technology wasn't so evolved. If you've no game to hunt and only sustainable source of protein is your own kin, it's really no wonder that people resort to cannibalism and infuse that to their culture. Be it vikings, celts or maori, they weren't nice people if you were on the wrong end of sharp stick.

I'd like to think that most people can agree on a broad concept of "ancient people were uncivilized". It's just that the depth of the uncivility is often times neglected and we often times tend to romantize the days of the old. For example, I just happened to listen to Bach today, true story. While jamming his rad beats, I randomly figured to read a bit about him and via Wikipedia found out that he married this girl in her twenties when he was 35 or so. Anyway, time passes and eventually so does Bach. Goes blind after a charlatan doc brutalizes his eyesight and he dies some months later. His wife was left without support, resorted to begging on the streets and eventually died penniless. A heartwrenching story for sure.

I mean, this is Bach. A guy who lived some 300 years ago and is world renown for his music. A superstar back in his day too. To imagine that the wife of such a successful man dies a beggar can be shocking if one is unaware of the cultural setting way back then. To add to the tragedy, this great man met his untimely death most likely in the hands of this uneducated imposter. Medicine ain't what it used to be. I'm really happy I don't have to see a dentist of 17th century or anything.

In gaming, we'd typically see Bach and his time as a period of great cultural innovation, and only that. The baroque era, famous for what it is. But it wasn't all roses.

That's what I want. The good, bad and the ugly all together.

You're right, my stance was a bit judgemental ahah.

pineappledan wrote:

I mean, it's pretty telling that the Aztecs got a sacrificial altar as a unique district but they didn't see fit to have a Carthaginian Tophet or a Roman Latifundia. 

Maybe the Spanish will get a Hacienda, or USA will show up in Industrial with an antebellum plantation or something. It would be a shame if the Aztec are the only culture that gets their face rubbed in their civilization's uniquely s****y institutions.

Common buddy, it's the second post where you hint at false ideas ^^. Aztecs aren't the first non-european or non-white culture presented in the game, but yes,they're represented with was could be argued to be a "bad look". Dev aren't showing this side out of malice, it's a game about fame, it's not being racist or bigoted to say that that's what they are known for. Is it sad that it is the case because there is much more to their culture ? Yup it is, but it's not the dev fault.

Also just look at the Byzantine which can be considered pretty european considering their Greek/Roman heritage, they get the Hyppodromos, you know, this place used to kill people in public executions ? Goth are presented as raiders, ransackers or what we would know by today standard as not so great people.Don't be desingenous and try to hint at the dev intention when it's very clear they are just trying to create a game with no bad intentions. There is a lot of shitty thing in history and that's why mindlessly jumping on the band wagon of "Europe and whites bad other good" is just as bad as doing the same for non-european/white culture. The truth of the matter is some European were the tormentor of other Europeans just as they were sometime the tormentors of non-european, but the opposite is true too, we've seen african and middle eastern being tormentor to their own neighbors just as much as they were to other part of the world :) 

Starbound wrote:
Anyway, should the game have a sort of encyclopedia

Yes, there will be an encyclopedia, containing both gameplay information and historical information, but I am not sure about the extent of the latter yet.

Starbound wrote:
Another thing that'd be nice to see would be the environmental elements and their effects on various cultures. Native Americans incorporated bison to their way of life in a big way as I've understood it. The bison herds gave them most of the things they needed for life so it's no wonder that they were coveted and revered animals. So having anything bison-related in either their EQ would be the easy way out but better would be to have either weighted spawn spots or specialized tile yields. Taken further, Native American tribes could get specialized bonuses like unique trade goods to represent their strong affinity with those animals. Ancient Egyptians had a thing with Nile and it's floods. Nobody builds Igloos like the Inuits and so on.

While we understand the sentiment, the game will not go into that much detail mechanically, for many reasons. For example, there is the required production effort to take into account, but there are also game design reasons to not delve too deeply into specifics. In fact, earlier in development we tried more terrain-specific Legacy Traits, and our testers found this to often be detrimental to the experience of the game.

For the darker parts of history, as far as I can tell from my experience with the game these are largely covered by the events system and certain civics. For many of these topics, the game systems do not offer the granularity required to represent them mechanically.

The vibes I get from HUMANKIND are very positive, I doubt there'll be much space for historical accuracy (also for gameplay reasons). The marketing seems to lean more on our achievements than our crimes. So I expect a lot of revisionist whitewashing garbage... and I actually like it. Its nice to get some respite in the grim, dark present of 2020.

I think another limitation of presenting grim pages of human history are prudish game regulators. Probably the last thing Amplitude desires are being slapped with M or R rating trying to present those aspects. It would really hurt their sales and that what keeps most game devs from exploring those these.

Yes i think games are a good artform to express the darker sides of history and the consequences of ones actions, especially historical games.

I think it's good to learn from the bad pages of history, because if we just pretend they never happened, we may be doomed to repeat the same mistakes eventually.