PARAdoxiBLE wrote:

RemBert wrote:

I thought science mode stayed on indefinitely. That's how it seemed when I tried it.

Nah it can be turned off after 5 turns

So then you lose 5 turns of production but in return reasearch all the era + some techs from the future era? I still think it's a bit... exessive, for a cost of a single expansion

Pacing is one of the aspects we are gathering feedback on, and there are specifically questions about "Science Mode" and the pacing of research in the survey. That said, the affinity abilities are supposed to be powerful so they have a tangible impact on your playstyle, so we're trying to walk a very fine line between "overpowered" and "took weak to be interesting" here (which makes the feedback from OpenDev all the more vital.)

Another factor to keep in mind: You can only research so far before you need to advance cultures. If you burst through all Ancient technologies as Babylon and maybe even the Classical ones, then you switch to another type of Civilization, E.g. the Goths because you want to go to war, then you will not have anything to research and any Science production your cities have goes to waste.

The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales wrote:

Pacing is one of the aspects we are gathering feedback on, and there are specifically questions about "Science Mode" and the pacing of research in the survey. That said, the affinity abilities are supposed to be powerful so they have a tangible impact on your playstyle, so we're trying to walk a very fine line between "overpowered" and "took weak to be interesting" here (which makes the feedback from OpenDev all the more vital.)

I certainly understand the challenge :)

Has the team considered to formulate these abilities in more "predictable" terms? For example, choosing (or ascending) a scientfic culture will let you choose give you X cultures fro free, while also allow you to reasearch from the next era. I think this might be easier to balance and more difficult to exploit than the current system. For example with teh current scalable nature of these ability, the "go builder first, scientist second and research everythign" min-maxing strategy sounds almost to good to pass on. And I am not sure whether one can balance it to avoid these situations... Players are notoriesly good at abusing the mechanics :)

P.S. I will definitely provide more detailed feedback if I get into OpenDev so that I can see the actual numbers...

@The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales Well you certainly can't expect us to evaluate the power of Science Mode, if we don't know the opportunity cost of the other bonuses. Since it's power is relative to the other bonuses we can only tell you if it's worth turning on, which clearly the answer is "yes". Whether it is better or worse than what other cultures get, or too powerful, we cannot say.

Furthermore your point about goths is exactly backwards. You could build no science buildings as Babylon, instead focusing on industry. Use science mode to unlock all ancient and classical techs, then when you switch to Goths you're all geared up to be a military-industrial power with no wasted investment in science.

Eulogos wrote:

@The-Cat-o-Nine-Tales Well you certainly can't expect us to evaluate the power of Science Mode, if we don't know the opportunity cost of the other bonuses. Since it's power is relative to the other bonuses we can only tell you if it's worth turning on, which clearly the answer is "yes". Whether it is better or worse than what other cultures get, or too powerful, we cannot say.

Furthermore your point about goths is exactly backwards. You could build no science buildings as Babylon, instead focusing on industry. Use science mode to unlock all ancient and classical techs, then when you switch to Goths you're all geared up to be a military-industrial power with no wasted investment in science.

Is it worth though? In my testing I've never run out of things to build, with and without science mode. I feel that this mode will only be usable if you follow a strict strategy, like early warmongering (for which you seem to need a tech). Or maybe you want a specific wonder. But else I would never waste even 5 turn which could go into developing my cities or founding new ones.

To put it simple, my opinion on "science mode" is that, it's introduced too easily and it's current mechanics provide instant advantages, which I consider too meaningful to be correct.

Yes, we get it for testing and to see impression. This is it, and to see it more elaborated, it will take some time.

- The possibility to trigger should require much more conditions, maybe even major dedication of civilisation development, and/or having prerequisite structures, policies (or just mean of policy), building up stockpile, etc. - for which a 30 turns testbed is not enough.

- The effect/result (to represent the "organic" attribute) should be not immediate with 100% potency. It may take progressive curve for constant price, or dedicating resource for only chances of breakthroughs (and that is not necessarily 1:1, dedicating resources maybe in 10 steps (maybe even decide every turn how much and what, it's a focus point in the end of the day) and getting 3-10 results with varieting chance modifiers. E.g.: try to do chemical solutions, with high resource dedication you can experiment with metals included, so you discover Galvanization), you can have advisors giving good and bad hints, which way to go.
- The time factor can be stretched even from previous age, and may last +2, or just be a part of current age.

Actually "science mode" feels like just being possibility to focus on hoarding up one of the FIDS, but with (maybe not ever-)lasting results. E.g.: Go farming mode to majorly improve generic civilisation bonus (e.g.: farming healthy>survivor foodstuffs), go machinery mode to assemble vast capability of production or make a project come alive, go surveyor mode for the chance to uncover hidden Dust sources.