I think the point of repetition crossbow is because its quite unique, and even if less powerful than proper crossbow, it could lead to ijntersting quick fire ability

Rocket cart i dont really know, but i think some early muskets or more traditionnal units might indeed work better? This might be for variety sake again

While looking into potential spy/secret police EU I saw that Ming had some for a long time, i dont recall the name, do you think it could work?

Thank you for sharing your point of view its interesting

There are just so many potential choices for EU, any particular choice won't please everyone, it's just that simple. Calvary is not that unique to Ming, at least not so in comparison with nomadic cultures. China is the first to invent black powder, I'm not surprised that they choose rocket cart as EU. Spy

MasterPaw wrote:

While looking into potential spy/secret police EU I saw that Ming had some for a long time, i dont recall the name, do you think it could work?

That's a good idea, they are call Dōng Chǎng（東廠）, consisted of eunuchs close to the emperor.

Ciphas23 wrote:

Sorry for the rant. I would like to just have something normal to represent China for once, some sort of cavalry or infantry would be nice. There are other more recognizeable troop choice that I know many Ming enthuists would know at first sight, like Guan Ning Cavalry who are the elite calvary near the end of Ming, or Liao Dong Calvary who uses firearms who uses firearms both as ranged and meele weapon. If you want Shenjiying units, why not just use the normal troops who uses arquebus? Personally I would like to see Tang or Han to be the represent China, but Ming is not the worst choice.

The deal here is simple. Since all the units in your army will look like actual Ming troops, the Emblamatic unit is really less about being a perfect representative and more about being somewhat of a unicorn/circus animal in the army. 
The fire arrow contraptions fit that bill quite nicely. In a similar vein, the Poles are getting Winged Hussars. Their historical relevance? Basically next to none. But they have wings strapped to their backs and that looks cool. Japanese Naginata Samurai? Same thing, naginatas and samurai armor are cool, even if your typical wouldn't run around with one, nor form the backbone of the army. Mughals get elephants with cannons, Joseon gets Turtle Ships (and not Pankoseons, which were the ship which actually won engagements and had significance beyond usage as modern tourist attractions), Spanish get Conquistadores (which is again, a fairly vague term applied to anyone going abroad to expand and has fairly little to no actual miitary value... whereas something really emblematic of them during this period would have been Tercios, Galleons and so on).

The Emblematic units are there to fill a gameplay purpose, representation of period-accurate military is handled by your regular roster of military units. That's why Nubian Archers (Ta-Seti) can hit enemies without obstructions, or Zhou chariots deal more damage if your stability is high.

Emblematic Units are meant to be something iconic or distinctive. As others have said, the standard ingame units are going to include cannon and musketmen etc, but having access to Rocket Carts is a fairly distinctive and unique thing to East Asia during the period. They're not really documented in usage in Europe for example. 

I know theres some controversy around the lack of Korean Hwacha's in the game as well though. It seems like it might be a bit dissapointing to only have access to something like rocket carts as one or the other culture.

SunshineWings wrote:

There are just so many potential choices for EU, any particular choice won't please everyone, it's just that simple. Calvary is not that unique to Ming, at least not so in comparison with nomadic cultures. China is the first to invent black powder, I'm not surprised that they choose rocket cart as EU. Spy

MasterPaw wrote:

While looking into potential spy/secret police EU I saw that Ming had some for a long time, i dont recall the name, do you think it could work?

That's a good idea, they are call Dōng Chǎng（東廠）, consisted of eunuchs close to the emperor.

I feel the urge to remind yuo that Ming had a long standing tradition of spying, and the majority of work was done by the Embroidered Uniform Guard (锦衣卫). The Eastern Depot was a later invention.

Ananashi wrote:

Ciphas23 wrote:

I am still not convinced about the EU choice. Are Wind hussars not calvary? Are Naginata samurai somehow being devoid of their samurai status? No. They are just, in lack of a better word, unique. Yet the Rocket Cart is not unique to Ming. Song had the same gunpowder propelled firearrows, Koreans had the Hwacha, and I would even go as far as to say the Mongols have used them at same point too. I don't see them being unique to MIng, do you? So why the EU choice?

Emblematic units are not strictly unique.
Spanish Conquistadors were not unique to Spain, Portuguese also had them.
Polish Winged Hussars are just an adoption of Hussar cavalry from the Hungarians, whom took the whole concept along with the famous wings from the Ottomans.
They are not really any more unique in their part of the world than the fire arrow launchers were in theirs.
Better yet as an example, we have a quadrology of chariots in the Ancient era. With generic chariots that everyone gets, Hittite Chariots (pin down units), Egyptian Chariots (ranged) and finally Zhou Chariots (stronger with empire's stability).

They're not meant to be unique. I fully agree with you they're not exactly the most emblematic of Ming's arsenal, but within the context of the Imjin War (which the Ming-Joseon-Japan emblematic units all revolve around), they do the job well. Japan gets the samurai as an outdated, but dangerous melee unit. Joseon gets a ship that rolls all over other ships to symbolise their victories on the sea during the war and Ming gets the Rocket Cart to represent their gunpowder superiority on the land. Their mainstray may have been cannons, but there is no generic cannon unit to replace in this period, so they inherit the gunpowder weapon which has gained all of its fame and recognition for this conflict alone (since it is generally not all that great as a weapon, a fact realised both by the Ming/Qing and Joseon afterwards).

Very well, I will accept that EU units are not really meant to be unique.

However, If they want to symbolize Ming's gunpowder superiority, they could just use a real cannon unit, that's not very hard, is it? The use of rocket cart had already declined or at least in decline during the war, because the Ming army has already realized that cannons are far superior by the start of the 16th century. So why pick the rocket cart, an outdated weapon that is being replaced by the cannons, when true guns (and cannons) had already been mass produced, employed and succeded? Perhaps this is another decision I'll never understand.

Samurais aren't necessarily outdated at that point, they still serve as superior units to ashigaru, albeit firepowder makes everything a lot more equal. Samurais's irelevance came after the establishment of Tokugawa shogunate, when conflict ceased and Americans came knocking much later.

If you want to make sure I have evidence support my claim, I recommend to you Soldiers of the Dragon: Chinese Armies 1500 BC - AD 1840.

Ciphas23 wrote:

However, If they want to symbolize Ming's gunpowder superiority, they could just use a real cannon unit, that's not very hard, is it? The use of rocket cart had already declined or at least in decline during the war, because the Ming army has already realized that cannons are far superior by the start of the 16th century. So why pick the rocket cart, an outdated weapon that is being replaced by the cannons, when true guns (and cannons) had already been mass produced, employed and succeded? Perhaps this is another decision I'll never understand.

I've mentioned it in the previous post, but the era has no cannons in it. Those are Industrial Era units.
For better or worse, the current version of the game does not have any era-hopping units. Zhou armies did use crossbows, but the game makes crossbows a Medieval era unit, and thus Zhou get a chariot unit instead. Imagine if Song made it into the game, they also couldn't get firearms before anyone else. Ming straddles the same path. I fully agree Ming's artillery make more sense for this, but Early Modern doesn't have those, so they can't get them.

We'll see if the cultures added later into the game break this pattern and allow some cultures units which introduce a certain unit earlier than the tech tree allows, but vanilla ones uphold this equally.

Ananashi wrote:

Ciphas23 wrote:

However, If they want to symbolize Ming's gunpowder superiority, they could just use a real cannon unit, that's not very hard, is it? The use of rocket cart had already declined or at least in decline during the war, because the Ming army has already realized that cannons are far superior by the start of the 16th century. So why pick the rocket cart, an outdated weapon that is being replaced by the cannons, when true guns (and cannons) had already been mass produced, employed and succeded? Perhaps this is another decision I'll never understand.

I've mentioned it in the previous post, but the era has no cannons in it. Those are Industrial Era units.
For better or worse, the current version of the game does not have any era-hopping units. Zhou armies did use crossbows, but the game makes crossbows a Medieval era unit, and thus Zhou get a chariot unit instead. Imagine if Song made it into the game, they also couldn't get firearms before anyone else. Ming straddles the same path. I fully agree Ming's artillery make more sense for this, but Early Modern doesn't have those, so they can't get them.

We'll see if the cultures added later into the game break this pattern and allow some cultures units which introduce a certain unit earlier than the tech tree allows, but vanilla ones uphold this equally.

I guess there's really no point in arguing about this choice then. I have voiced my opinion on the matter and I think that's enough. It's up to the studio to decide whether or not they are going to listen. The EU choice is surely going to upset some people, and I guess that's just part of the game development cycle, can't please everyone.

Good weekend to you, kind sir, or whatever pronoun you prefer.