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Food max / turn frustration + Machu Picchu bad description

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4 years ago
Aug 28, 2021, 3:46:00 PM

I'm playing in Endless pace, so values are related to this speed.


So, food, give you a percentage of growth for the next turn :


16 food, gives you 12% of growth for the next turn.


48 food -> 24%

100 food -> 33%

200 food -> 40%

533 food -> 46%

989 food -> 48%

1531 food -> 48%


So, in Endless pace the max growth of population seem to be 48% per turns. 

I find those figures quite frustrating, being at mid range of the max growth rate with 50 food and earning only 2 percent from 500 to 1500 seem really hard and makes big food income really useless.



Now, for the Machu Picchu.

It says : 




This is the growth of the city having the Machu Picchu




And this is what every city gain of it : 




So every city gain a flat amount of food equivalent to half of the growth of the city having the Machu Picchu. 46% -> +23 food

It seem to be a little different of the description.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 28, 2021, 4:02:34 PM

I think large amounts of food are meant to support large populations rather than grow them.  (also, it is possible the %growth doesn’t only depend on excess food but also on population or total food production). However that is really bad for MP. They REALLY need more formulas.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 28, 2021, 4:19:36 PM

I checked it, max growth rate depend of game speed. Excess food is only food produce - food consumption by population. And growth per turn is a hard log function between only excess food and max growth rate

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4 years ago
Aug 28, 2021, 4:57:40 PM

I think I should have said a fast log, you can reach 80% of the max growth rate at arround 150-160 food, it seem really low compared to how many food you can reach in mid-end game

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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 8:31:19 AM

Thank you for sharing that finding. I also thought Macchu Picchu would be great, but it only added a little bit of food - which I couldn't tell exactly how much in cities, but in outposts it shows directly.

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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 12:38:41 PM
Uitaneko wrote:

I'm playing in Endless pace, so values are related to this speed.


And this is what every city gain of it : 




So every city gain a flat amount of food equivalent to half of the growth of the city having the Machu Picchu. 46% -> +23 food

It seem to be a little different of the description.

Allow me to correct you here:
It only gives that bonus to one city. At least in my game.

The city that was build (not conquered) after the wonder has been constructed.

IT'S A BUG.

Here is my Steam Thread concerning that


Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 6:52:51 PM

You are right on the fact that this line appear ONLY on cities created after the Machu Picchu is constructed.

But I tried it ! I decreased the growth of the city having the Machu Picchu and the food of all other cites decreased of the right amount :

Going from 26% growth to 16% -> 10% loss, so -5 food, and every cities actually lost 5 food.

So the bug is that it doesn't appear in the details of old cities, but it's actually count in "District"

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 7:51:27 PM

Great, but it still doesn't consider my output of 1323 or my gains 2604 in the city I specifically tailored around Farming to get Machu Picchu there. 
It's buggy, describing it badly and not promising what it says on the box. I want all the industry production back I farmed so hard to get. *pout* 

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 9:16:25 PM

To be honest, if the machu picchu would actually do what it says, it would be extreme.


If you add half the surplus (let alone raw production) of food of one city (especially one crafted for food) to all other cities... then all your cities will never have to deal with food ever again to grow to a reasonable size.


Compare that to late-game wonders that just give +10% on everything and the early-game wonder machu picchu still wins by far.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 9:21:56 PM

The whole game is utterly and blissfully unbalanced, so why not?

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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 9:50:35 PM

The thing is that the Machu Picchu doesn't exactly do what you think when you read its description, and you need to do a lot of tests to find exactly what it does.

To fix this they need to adapt the description or change how it works.


For the balancing, if it does what it says, giving 50% of the food to all cities seem really huge, even if it's only on the flat exceeding food. But for now, it's pretty useless, in endless speed, it gives at max 24 food to every other cities. 


If you compare this to other wonders, it's really not worth. 

To point out how others are broken, if you combine Angkor Wat (1 Faith = 1 Food) and Saint Basile's Cathedral (1 District (in your entire empire) = 1 Faith) in the same city, you can litterally make thousands of food excees. But, as i saied in the begining, this is quite pointless as 500 excess food and 2000 gives the same growth per turn.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 29, 2021, 10:01:14 PM

I know what you mean, but I had the feeling that for most things it is so imbalanced that is is balanced again. Playing against human players its often very close till the end and while they might have incredibly stupid amounts of money (20k income per turn) I might have the same for science and it somehow keeps being interesting. If the Machu Picchu would do what it describes it would however definitely sit among the more broken aspects (like the contemporary emblematic districts that basically say "the game is over soon so fuck it")

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4 years ago
Aug 31, 2021, 8:25:12 PM

Both pop growth and pop starvation is capped towards 100% on standard speed. This work fine in early game when food numbers is small but it don't give any rewards for really focusing on maintaining huge food surplus, nor is it that punishing for huge cities with massive negative food surplus. Right now the only way to grow huge population is spamming alot of cities no matter how small they are or exploting various mechanics that create population.

This huge city with over 1000 population have a massive negative food surplus, but it will only lose a population per turn and it is close to the end of the game, losing maybe 50 population of 1200 seems like a very small penalty for being able to completely ignore your food income.


I think something need to be changed about the population growth rate such as base it on era, faster growth rate in later eras, maybe based on technology which would fit better with the increased population requirement of military units, or base growth rate upon number of territories attached to the city, cities with more territories would have higher growth rate. This would make huge multi territorial cities stay more competetive in terms of population growth compared to having alot of small cities. Starvation could work the same way.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 31, 2021, 8:57:58 PM

I think the simplest solution would be to have the growth or starvation rate multiplied by 1+population*0.02.... so at 50 pop you could get lose 2 a turn, 100 pop you could get/lose 3 a turn and so forth.

Updated 4 years ago.
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4 years ago
Aug 31, 2021, 9:11:01 PM
Krikkitone wrote:

I think the simplest solution would be to have the growth or starvation rate multiplied by 1+population*0.02.... so at 50 pop you could get lose 2 a turn, 100 pop you could get/lose 3 a turn and so forth.

That would be an interesting way to keep growth in some way tied to population size which seems realistic.

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4 years ago
Aug 31, 2021, 9:50:30 PM

In my last game, I built a Macchu Picchu, because my territories had a lot of mountains and were not good at food production. Actually IMHO it would make more sense to give Macchu Picchu with the effect of producing more foods (and generating more influence?) for the tiles of mountain and rocky forest. In that way the reason to build this wonder would correspond to its effects more consistently. A simple logic that is very easy to understand.

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4 years ago
Aug 31, 2021, 10:03:23 PM
Formosa2077 wrote:

In my last game, I built a Macchu Picchu, because my territories had a lot of mountains and were not good at food production. Actually IMHO it would make more sense to give Macchu Picchu with the effect of producing more foods (and generating more influence?) for the tiles of mountain and rocky forest. In that way the reason to build this wonder would correspond to its effects more consistently. A simple logic that is very easy to understand.

It is an interesting idea, like what if Macchu Picchu gave a massive food adjacency from moutains to farmer districts, making it a very nice wonder in a specific situation in which you have alot of moutains but not much food producing tiles.

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4 years ago
Sep 1, 2021, 3:39:38 AM
Goodluck wrote:
Formosa2077 wrote:

In my last game, I built a Macchu Picchu, because my territories had a lot of mountains and were not good at food production. Actually IMHO it would make more sense to give Macchu Picchu with the effect of producing more foods (and generating more influence?) for the tiles of mountain and rocky forest. In that way the reason to build this wonder would correspond to its effects more consistently. A simple logic that is very easy to understand.

It is an interesting idea, like what if Macchu Picchu gave a massive food adjacency from moutains to farmer districts, making it a very nice wonder in a specific situation in which you have alot of moutains but not much food producing tiles.

Yes, that is what in my mind: a nice wonder in a specific situation.

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